DrWatson 62 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 gave emby a bad name maybe that is why they changed the licence. Lol I guess it must be just a coincidence that the license for the Emby.ApiClient.Java was changed from the MIT license 4 days after this thread started then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I just remembered even before there was an app for ios and what happened after awhile they stopped updating and gave emby a bad name maybe that is why they changed the licence. Not sure what you are even trying to say here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14924 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 This licence change was made a month ago and with absolutely no relation to this particular client. All we are trying to do is protect all of the work we provide for free under the same rules as anyone else. We have no desire to block anyone's ability to make an income on their own work. I have no desire to "rip off" Mark's code either nor have I ever done that. Mark and I were cooperating on a few things and I completely respected whenever he didn't want to share something. My code has been publicly available from the outset. One option would be for us to make the library MIT again and close-source our apps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Now to me that makes sense. Let the apps be closed and the library be MIT. That allows app developers to not be forced to show their source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee 204 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I've got to be honest I don't understand a lot of this but @@Redshirt and @@Tikuf were valuable members from the off on this project... Seems a shame to not have them back in the frame? Surely a resolution can be found that keeps everyone happy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14924 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 I've got to be honest I don't understand a lot of this but @@Redshirt and @@Tikuf were valuable members from the off on this project... Seems a shame to not have them back in the frame? Surely a resolution can be found that keeps everyone happy??? If either one of them had contacted me or Luke about this issue (they didn't) none of this would have been an problem I'm sure. Until msattler decided to start this discussion based on incorrect information, neither Luke nor I had any idea they had an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 If either one of them had contacted me or Luke about this issue (they didn't) none of this would have been an problem I'm sure. Until msattler decided to start this discussion based on incorrect information, neither Luke nor I had any idea they had an issue. Perhaps it may go back to some past experiences between those two developers and yourself and Luke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) This licence change was made a month ago and with absolutely no relation to this particular client. Except that after having gone with no license change since it's inception, you changed it 4 days after this app was announced, and excitement was created. Nope, no relation at all. Even if it was done with no harm intended to TiaMat, one would think you would have thought this change out more carefully? Maybe reached out to fellow developers, maybe a mass email announcing it to others. But in the same manner as the data collection which was documented nowhere, and never communicated, you just change the licensing 4 days after TiaMat is announced. And here you bash me in a Private Message about spreading mis-information...... Honestly, with every post you post, it just makes me want to go over to a less abled product in Plex, just to not continue to hear the BS. BTW, it may help if you un-ban one of the developers so they could actually contact you. Edited March 26, 2016 by MSattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speechles 1920 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 The takeaway here to remind everyone is once again third party developers get shit on. I dont understand these licenses. I dont need to either as most of that wording is mumbo jumbo judges throw out lawsuits over. If I were redshirt or tikuf I would be like f-you , sue me then, and in cartmans own words "I can do what I want". To play the "I will sue, respect my licensing" game is a clear money grab. These are akin to patent hoarding and trolling. The lowest of the low. How shameful. The fact you see third party developers chased away is telling. Ironically two who were chased off before. It is ridiculous to have in-fighting over something so stupid and childish. Who the hell cares. OMG But seriously, redshirt and tikuf, respect. You are the bigger men. Peace. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 The fact you see third party developers chased away is telling. Ironically two who were chased off before. It is ridiculous to have in-fighting over something so stupid and childish. Who the hell cares. OMG Totally agreed. The list of 3rd party developers who have left is getting longer and longer. And yes, it is @msattler 's fault for pointing all this out. Care to think maybe that a user having to come out and post this is a reflection upon how your 3rd party developers feel towards you? So much that they rather just walk away than to deal with you? Emby as a whole is only as good as ALL of it's developers. Two developers cannot keep this entire thing running. Returning the libraries to MIT may not bring back those who have left. But not changing it back sure as hell is not going to attract any additional developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Apparently EBR cannot read all of my posts, so let me make sure reads this. His PM to me: So you take absolutely no ownership of making completely false statements here? And making accusations that you have no basis in fact for? Nice. So let's get the record straight. Facts: I posted about the fact that TiaMat could not be sold, and that the Source has to be opened to be released. On subsequent posts (Post #111) I came back and noted that yes, perhaps under GPL they could still sell the product. But doing so is a moot point because who wants to sell an app when it means giving away the source for free, especially when two developers are making money off of this. And honestly, if you were in EBR/Luke's boat, would you want to bring on a third paid developer, and then take home less money than you are now? Hmmm, just let the release rate suffer, make the users wait a bit more, and you can take more money home. To back my original claim, it is still not 100% sure that it could legally be sold under GPL due to the following clause, as noted here in post #122: Also from gpl lic > b ) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heuer 76 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 This licence change was made a month ago and with absolutely no relation to this particular client. All we are trying to do is protect all of the work we provide for free under the same rules as anyone else. We have no desire to block anyone's ability to make an income on their own work. I have no desire to "rip off" Mark's code either nor have I ever done that. Mark and I were cooperating on a few things and I completely respected whenever he didn't want to share something. My code has been publicly available from the outset. One option would be for us to make the library MIT again and close-source our apps. We have a way forward then! What do we need to do to sweeten the deal to get Redshirt back? Perhaps it would now be wise to stop all the rhetoric and get things back on track before friendships are irretrievably broken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 We have a way forward then! What do we need to do to sweeten the deal to get Redshirt back? Perhaps it would now be wise to stop all the rhetoric and get things back on track before friendships are irretrievably broken. I have tried to reach out to Redshirt. At this point we need to just hope he comes back. Perhaps once the licenses for the libraries are changed back he will return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heuer 76 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 @@ebr has responded to this matter quickly, courteously and factually. It would seem churlish if @@Redshirt were not to respond in kind for the benefit of the community. Here's hoping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRA 39 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Well that escalated quickly... For the sake of future of Emby I suggest @@Luke @@ebr @@Redshirt and @@Tikuf should sort this out behind closed doors, continuing this thread in the same maner with name calling and 3rd party info is of no good. Thank you @@MSattler for informing us of the situation. But I think it's of no good doing this dirty laundry out in the open any longer. Get the issue settled and inform us of the outcome when possible. I suggest you split this thread and move the discussion somewhere appropriate, as for the original topic make a final post that development has halted due to licensing issue and lock it. just my .2 on the matter. I sincerely hope you all find a solution everyone can live with. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantaxp7 190 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Tiamat is such a great client, I would hate to see it never be made public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy2Play 8296 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Sound pretty similar to what happened with the first Roku app. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Sound pretty similar to what happened with the first Roku app. I guess that is my issue with all this. It's not like this is the first issue between the two paid developers and the third party developers if you spend time in chat. It's so easy to point the finger at me, and accuse me of stirring shit up. Yet, 99% of the user base is clueless as to the rumors that fly around as to what has happened in the past. I wouldn't come out saying something if I didn't think it was bad for the future of Emby and bad for 3rd party developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14924 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 As I stated earlier, if any of the parties directly involved in this had actually approached us about it we would have been able to address whatever concerns they had. Instead, a campaign of mis-information and brash assumptions and accusations was launched against us by a user and I feel that was unwarranted and unfortunate but, I'm moving on. This issue has been addressed as far as we (the Emby Team) is concerned and Redshirt is free to continue his client as we assumed he still was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karbowiak 27 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Why not write your own API library, and use the excellent API that is built into Emby, that way you'd get around the library that EBR/Luke made, and can license it with whatever fucking license you want yourself. You can't copyright / license APIs (Atleast, not in Europe, no idea about the US)So, why all the whining? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 As I stated earlier, if any of the parties directly involved in this had actually approached us about it we would have been able to address whatever concerns they had. Instead, a campaign of mis-information and brash assumptions and accusations was launched against us by a user and I feel that was unwarranted and unfortunate but, I'm moving on. This issue has been addressed as far as we (the Emby Team) is concerned and Redshirt is free to continue his client as we assumed he still was. A campaign of mis-information? You give me too much credit, although I think you said the same thing when I posted about the data collection that you were doing. None of this would be such a big issue if you two would drop the cloak and dagger act, and just be more open about things. Let's hope Red comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 Why not write your own API library, and use the excellent API that is built into Emby, that way you'd get around the library that EBR/Luke made, and can license it with whatever fucking license you want yourself. You can't copyright / license APIs (Atleast, not in Europe, no idea about the US) So, why all the whining? And what happens when various other pieces start being blocked? May as well just come up with an entire new "Open Media" System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14924 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 You stated that the GPL license meant that software could not be sold. That is false and, thus, mis-information. You stated that our data collection policy was "documented nowhere". That is also false as it is, and has been, clearly documented in our Privacy Policy. Also mis-information. I won't even get into the accusations and assumptions you made. I guess you can read into whatever you want to. That is your prerogative. I am finished with this conversation and am going back to pouring my entire life into trying to create the most valuable personal media ecosystem out there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSattler 387 Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) You stated that the GPL license meant that software could not be sold. That is false and, thus, mis-information. You stated that our data collection policy was "documented nowhere". That is also false as it is, and has been, clearly documented in our Privacy Policy. Also mis-information. I won't even get into the accusations and assumptions you made. I guess you can read into whatever you want to. That is your prerogative. I am finished with this conversation and am going back to pouring my entire life into trying to create the most valuable personal media ecosystem out there. For fords sake, do you READ any of my posts. I have, multiple times now said in repeated posts that perhaps it may be able to be sold under GPL. However, there is a portion of the GPL which needs to be further looked at, since you have now ignored it three times, I'll make the font a bit larger. Also from gpl lic > b ) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. To me that certainly says it could not be sold? As for the data collection, your policy basically stated that you can collect data, but nowhere did it specify what you were collecting. But you know what if that so-called mis-information campaign gets Emby users an option to opt-out of data collection, and if this mis-information campaign brings 3rd party developers back to Emby, then call it whatever the hell you want. I don't see you doing jack shit to bring developers to the project. You always ask people to find developers to help, but the minute it comes to any sort of revenue sharing, these developers suddenly are seen walking the plank. It's funny, as time goes on, Emby looks less like an "Open Media" System, and more of a closed garden of sorts, kind of like AOL in the early internet days. Closed gardens die off eventually. Edited March 26, 2016 by MSattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redshirt 1487 Posted March 26, 2016 Author Share Posted March 26, 2016 Looks like this topic escalated quickly. There's too much to respond to so I'll just try and hit the high notes. The elephent in the room is obviously the license change. I don't think this announcement thread spurred that change, after all, I'd reached out to Luke & ebr privately a month prior to let them know this project existed. I would have liked the same courtesy in return when the license model was changed last month. It was only by accident that we came across it less than a week ago. I don't agree that forcing open source model would even the playing field. Sure... security cameras in the casino's keep the players honest, but the game is still stacked in the dealers favor. Open source hurts our ability to be competitive with existing clients. Also, as pointed out previously, I could just code my own api library to communicate with the server. That would make licensing a non-issue, but it's not a task I'm prepared for this late in the release cycle. The focus was on getting the project out the door, not re-inventing existing functionality. The timing of it all just stinks. The license has been reverted back, which is nice. Although I have to admit that I'm skittish now. It's shown us how not in control of our own software we are. If something so simple as this license change can throw a wrench into the works, then what else might happen down the road? I am finished with this conversation and am going back to pouring my entire life into trying to create the most valuable personal media ecosystem out there. That's just it... We pour our lives into these projects. I just want to be sure I'm not wasting mine . 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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