Tiamat - New Android Living Room Client

[David Simpson 0]

I would love to test this. I am using an amlogic S905 TV box with 2GB RAM.

[mariob33 2]

have a few Shields one connected to a 4k pj, and AFTV (gen2)

I would love to test if spots still available.

[MSattler 387]

It is with great reluctance that I am writing this, but I feel like at this point it needs to be said.  Before I proceed I do want to acknowledge all the work that Luke and EBR have done over the last few years, as well as all of the volunteer developers as well.  This project started as an all volunteer project, and personally I have been using it since it's early Pre Client/Server lifetime.  Now, I have no issues with Luke and EBR charging for Emby, as turning Emby into a profitable piece of software has helped the product moved forward.  However,  with Emby now having 2 primary developers working on nearly all of the apps, it leaves bugs in many of the clients, and the server, there simply isn't enough time to fix the issues all at the same time.  But that is where volunteer developers come in, right?

 

Well, not exactly.  Being that the two main developers are being paid, there is reluctance for other developers to add to Emby, a paid product, when there is no revenue stream for these volunteer developers.  The expectation is that they contribute code, and expect no payment at all.   The point of true open source software is that it is free for everyone, that the product is advanced at no cost, any anyone can help out, and no one is in it for financial gain.  

 

So what can a couple of developers do to try and help out the end users?  Perhaps create an app like TiaMat that fills all of the shortfalls that the Emby Fire TV/Android app has had for months, while no progress has been made.  And of course as this post shows, TiaMat has been very popular and sought after, as it should because for me currently it is the go to application on Android.  In fact, I would argue that it is because of TiaMat that the Emby Fire TV/Android app is actually now getting some much needed improvements made to it, after sitting as it was for months.   The threat of competition forced the hand, and forced some updates for a client which was struggling.  For the community the creation of TiaMat was a win/win.

 

So what is the status of TiaMat?

 

Well, in short, it will most likely not be released.

 

Emby developers decided recently that they would change the license type of the java library that both Emby's client and Tiamat both use (from MIT to GPL). Now I get that most of you are not aware of what that actually means - in a nutshell it restricts the Tiamat Developers from selling Tiamat it also requires them to publicly post all the source code (and a few other things).  Now, what this means is that NO developers can charge for Emby applications, except for Luke and EBR who in turn make money from Emby Premiere.  Any code that would come about from an app like TiaMat could then be re-used within any Emby apps.

 

As it stands now the library prior to the changing of the license is still under the MIT license but all commits after that license change are not able to be used, yes they could make the changes manually, however the Emby developers have basically changed all the licenses except the c# api lib that scottl and the windows 10 app use.

 

To me, the intentions are pretty clear.  No one is allowed to make money off of Emby, except for the developers who currently own Emby.  Any outside clients cannot exist unless they are free and willing to turn over their source code.   So, I personally cannot see how that helps the community as it drives developers away, keeps new apps from being developed, and forces the users to wait for Emby official apps to be updated.   History itself shows that in some cases that leaves us with an inferior client such as the Android client.

 

The developers who have worked on TiaMat have put many hours into this app.  I mean let's be honest, before this app existed what Android app allowed for Direct Play of nearly all codecs <On a Nividia Shield>?  Does the Emby App allow you to use Gamebrowser and launch emulators?  Does the Emby App currently give any possibility of passing through TrueHD and DTS-HD?

 

As it stands, with the license change, aside from the Beta, TiaMat will never see the light of day.   To me, that is a say day for the entire Emby community.  Not just because this app will never see the day, but more so because the developers who want to push the envelope, and make Emby more than it is today, cannot unless they want to do it completely for free.  This wouldn't be an issue if there were not a couple of developers that would purely profit off of this.  If we are going to set the precedent that developers cannot charge for apps, due to licensing restrictions, then let that be the same rule for all the developers. 

 

This license change is going to keep this product from coming out, and it will stifle competition between different developers/applications.  It will slow the development, and acceleration of features in the applications.   In my opinion, this step will limit what Emby can be, and will leave me personally look at other options.

 

I personally will no longer be providing any in chat support for future members, recommend the product to future users, and will be looking to move away from the platform.  It is an open platform that allowed outside developers to create great third party apps such as the Samsung App, the Windows app, and various other non-emby developed apps.   Changing the licensing and force these developers to give away their code and apps is wrong.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Thank you TiaMat for the beta time.

 

 

 

 

[DrWatson 62]

Very well said Marcus. 

 

Thank you for bringing it to light.

 

It is a sad day where with a mere cut and paste someone can cause 6 months of development to just be rendered useless.

 

Luke you should be ashamed of yourself.

Edited March 26, 2016 by DrWatson

[KRA 39]

@@MSattler

 

This is sad news with cause for concern. Not long ago I read about turmoil among Kodi developers and now this.

 

If you put in a good amount of work for free I understand you don't want others to profit from it, Kodi is in a troubled state now partly because so many android sticks come preloaded with Kodi where no profit makes it's way back to the project. I can see the same thing happening here, although the need for Emby-Server gives you more control on the matter.

 

I've been using homebuilt computers as my source for TV and entertainment for the past 15 years, so I've tested quite a few different software solutions, more than I remember. Ofcourse the hunt for the perfect solutions continues because there is allways something missing. What MythTV did with live-tv more than 10 years ago I have not seen anyone come close to yet. What seems to be common for most projects is that it's more fun to work on new cool stuff than to squash old bugs, or simply start on something new before work is done with the previous thing you where working on.

 

That beein said, although reading a lot of "we are working on it/it's comming soon" posts in this forum, I feel Emby server has made impressive progress the time I've followed it. When it comes to clients though it's a different matter and big range, I don't want to out any clients but I've had some issues, the Kodi plugin is just amazing but if there was a emby client with good live-tv support I would not be using Kodi. 

 

I sincerely hope this gets sorted. 

[Heuer 76]

Very sad news indeed. I fully understand and applaud the two Emby developers for looking to make it a commercial success but where can the harm be in allowing paid for clients like TiaMat? 

 

Hopefully Luke and Eric will respond positively and we can avoid Emby spiralling down the same rocky road Kodi seems to be taking. Trouble is this sort of thing leaves a bitter taste and it can be hard to recover a lost reputation. Thanks MSattler for your honest and considered post. For the record I would have paid for Tiamat just to see if it met my needs.

[MSattler 387]

Lastest Beta of TiaMat is no longer functioning.

 

TiaMat is now dead.  So much for Direct Play for everything.  Have to go back to Kody with EmbySync now. 

 

This really sucks, for those who did not get to use it, this app blew the Emby app out of the water.  Now I have to manually sync games over as well.   

 

Ugh.

[ebr 14925]

No idea where this came from as we are not restricting anyone's ability to make money on their own software - even that which takes advantage of libraries we have written.

 

GPL in no way prohibits the sale of your app nor does it prohibit in-app or licensing fees of other kinds.

 

MSattler is mis-informed and has mis-informed all of you.

 

From the GPL license:

 

 

 

When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price.

[MSattler 387]

No idea where this came from as we are not restricting anyone's ability to make money on their own software - even that which takes advantage of libraries we have written.

 

GPL in no way prohibits the sale of your app nor does it prohibit in-app or licensing fees of other kinds.

 

MSattler is mis-informed and has mis-informed all of you.

 

It's funny I write a page and a half, and the response is 3 lines.

 

So let's just focus on the major points that seem to be at contention.

 

What exactly changed from the licensing perspective and what prompted these changes?  The only huge difference I see here is that GPL force developers to open source their code.

 

Are you saying that you and Luke would not be able to benefit from now causing all Developers who want to sell apps for emby to open source their code?   You could very easily take the code, rebrand it into an Emby app, give it away for free as a Premier app, and make money from Premier.  Again, what incentive does this provide to 3rd party developers?

 

What's interesting about all this, is that it seems to be kind of the way the first Android app went.  Redshirt created the app, got it going, and all of the sudden he vanishes, you guys pick up the code, and suddenly there is a new Emby Android client.  Here we have the same thing happen again.  

 

Co-incidence?

[ebr 14925]

It's funny I write a page and a half, and the response is 3 lines.

 

That is because your page and a half was based off of a completely false assumption:

 

 

  Now, what this means is that NO developers can charge for Emby applications, except for Luke and EBR 

 

That is simply not true and we play by the exact same rules as the other developers when it comes to the use of our freely provided libraries.

[MSattler 387]

No idea where this came from as we are not restricting anyone's ability to make money on their own software - even that which takes advantage of libraries we have written.

 

GPL in no way prohibits the sale of your app nor does it prohibit in-app or licensing fees of other kinds.

 

MSattler is mis-informed and has mis-informed all of you.

 

From the GPL license:

 

So perhaps I misunderstood from the selling perspective, but that being said, under GPL there is no money to be made when you have to open source the very client you created.  

 

From doing some google searched and comparing MIT to GPL:

 

You don't have to open-source your changes if you're using GPL. You could modify it and use it for your own purpose as long as you're not distributing it. BUT... if you DO distribute it, then your entire project that is using the GPL code also becomes GPL automatically. Which means, it must be open-sourced, and the recipient gets all the same rights as you - meaning, they can turn around and distribute it, modify it, sell it, etc. And that would include your proprietary code which would then no longer be proprietary - it becomes open source.

The difference with MIT is that even if you actually distribute your proprietary code that is using the MIT licensed code, you do not have to make the code open source. You can distribute it as a closed app where the code is encrypted or is a binary. Including the MIT-licensed code can be encrypted, as long as it carries the MIT license notice.

[MSattler 387]

That is because your page and a half was based off of a completely false assumption:

 

 

 

That is simply not true and we play by the exact same rules as the other developers when it comes to the use of our freely provided libraries.

 

Then why switch from MIT to GPL?

[ebr 14925]

Redshirt created the app, got it going, and all of the sudden he vanishes, you guys pick up the code, and suddenly there is a new Emby Android client. 

 

This is also inaccurate.  The new Android Mobile client was developed in a completely different technology from Redshirt's original app.  We did not "pick up his code".

[ebr 14925]

Then why switch from MIT to GPL?

 

So that everyone is playing by the same rules.  We have open-sourced our clients using this library.

[MSattler 387]

This is also inaccurate.  The new Android Mobile client was developed in a completely different technology from Redshirt's original app.  We did not "pick up his code".

 

I guess we just need to hope that RedShirt develops a new app every time progress on the Emby app comes to a screaming halt?  Let's be honest, there had been limited progress on the Android app until TiaMat suddenly surfaced.   All of the sudden there are multiple Emby app beta builds, and you fix bugs which had been complained about for months.

 

Having apps which are sold by 3rd party developers under a MIT license is a threat to revenue for Emby Premier, is it not?  If I am using Emby without a Premier license, I am limited to the web interface and a couple of other different apps.  If TiaMat becomes a success, there is no reason to purchase Premier unless you want cloud sync, CoverArt, etc.  But the reality is the most vital part of Premier are the clients.

 

Under GPL, Emby Premier is much better suited to be a continuing revenue stream, with less challenge from 3rd party applications since the code for those applications must now be open, and free to be re-used by anyone else.

[mediacowboy 438]

Okay can I ask a mod to pull out the MIT Vs GPL stuff to its own thread.

[MSattler 387]

Okay can I ask a mod to pull out the MIT Vs GPL stuff to its own thread.

 

What for?

 

The App is dead.... the latest Beta's are dead, and as of now there is no path forward for this app.  This comes directly from the TiaMat Support board.  Development has ceased because of the license change.

[DrWatson 62]

Okay can I ask a mod to pull out the MIT Vs GPL stuff to its own thread.

Why since it directly relates to the death of Tiamat

 

So that everyone is playing by the same rules.  We have open-sourced our clients using this library.

 

I seriously doubt that Redshirt used any of your code since his client a had all the features that yours didnt.

 

Playing by the same rules what a load > https://github.com/MediaBrowser/Emby.ApiClient/blob/master/LICENSE.md

so why is this lib still mit?

 

As far as I see it it is a blatant attempt to rip off code from a client that from the get go is more feature rich and more stable than your client.

 

This whole thing is a despicable act.

[Heuer 76]

So, moving forward, what has to happen to get TiaMat released? From what I am reading Redshirt can release his client and get paid for it. The GPL means anyone with an interest can look at, copy or modify the code but equally that applies to the current Emby apps. Everyone can plagiarise each others work but the end users can expect more stable and better developed products.

[MSattler 387]

So, moving forward, what has to happen to get TiaMat released? From what I am reading Redshirt can release his client and get paid for it. The GPL means anyone with an interest can look at, copy or modify the code but equally that applies to the current Emby apps. Everyone can plagiarise each others work but the end users can expect more stable and better developed products.

 

Well, the issue here is that Luke and EBR make money from Emby Premier.  Anyone who creates a 3rd party app in the MIT days could make money of the app, and keep the source to themselves.  Both parties made money.  Now, with GPL being in play, there is no point in creating a third party app, because you have to put your source out there, Luke and EBR could package the app up, and distribute it as well, or use the other code in their own app.   While yes the Emby apps are also open source, who in reality is going to use their code, and re-package it?  Luke and EBR have more to gain from this than the other way around.

 

Tikuf and RedShirt made it pretty simple on the TiaMat forum, as it stands right now Redshirt has walked away:

 

"As you are all aware Redshirt and I have poured many hours into Tia and just handing the source to Luke for him to take all the solutions we have come up with is never going to happen - we would both walk before that." 

Edited March 26, 2016 by MSattler

[Lee 204]

Seems to me there has been a massive shift in emby to make money. When mb2 set out it was all about the best player out there and free... Now it's all about you need emby premier, constant revenue stream.

Don't get me wrong I got in early and have emby premier, but it's escalated very quickly and presently I think it's pricey ...

[DrWatson 62]

No idea where this came from as we are not restricting anyone's ability to make money on their own software - even that which takes advantage of libraries we have written.

 

GPL in no way prohibits the sale of your app nor does it prohibit in-app or licensing fees of other kinds.

 

MSattler is mis-informed and has mis-informed all of you.

 

From the GPL license:

 

 

Also from gpl lic > b ) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in

whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any

part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third

parties under the terms of this License.

 

I dunno I hate license stuff but that looks to me like you have to give it away

 

 

even that which takes advantage of libraries we have written.

 

 

 

If i am not mistaken the we you use there should include Redshit since it looks like he has done more in the way of commits than you have Ebr.

Edited March 26, 2016 by DrWatson

[denz 426]

Redshirt should disclouse the source code how can it be fair that luke has to disclose the source code but not redshirt. Who knows how many hours Luke put in for this awesome project without Luke there would not be Tia. Just my 2 cents

 

I just remembered even before there was an app for ios and what happened after awhile they stopped updating and gave emby a bad name maybe that is why they changed the licence.

 

I agree Everybody should get along.

 

Redshirt should finish the app and then it is up to users to purchase it if they wish.

Edited March 26, 2016 by denz

[Heuer 76]

Nothing wrong in people being paid for their work. 

 

Presumably the Emby developers can go back to a MIT licence or is it too late? Emby is very quickly going to go into self destruct mode and the momentum it has built up as a superb alternative to Kodi is going to be lost. C'mon guys, learn to get along, let everyone make some money and make Emby the best home entertainment app. 

 

Luke and Eric - please re-consider the GPL and its long term implications

Redshirt - please come back and give us Tia

[MSattler 387]

Redshirt should disclouse the source code how can it be fair that luke has to disclose the source code but not redshirt. Who knows how many hours Luke put in for this awesome project without Luke there would not be Tia. Just my 2 cents

 

I just remembered even before there was an app for ios and what happened after awhile they stopped updating and gave emby a bad name maybe that is why they changed the licence.

 

I agree Everybody should get along.

 

Redshirt should finish the app and then it is up to users to purchase it if they wish.

 

Redshirt won't finish the app,  the minute he does, even if he does sell it, EBR and Luke can simply take all of his code, brand it as their own app, give it away under Premier, and continue to make money on Premier.  

 

As for Redshirt having to open his code, Emby was created under MIT not GPL.  This means that the developers for Emby did NOT have to put all of the open source out there, unless any of it was open sourced to begin with.  TiaMat was written under MIT, while Emby was MIT.   From everything I see, TiaMat will not make it out, unless Emby were to remain under MIT.

 

You are asking someone to give their code away, and risk getting nothing in return.   Yes, Luke and EBR have made the Emby source open, however, they are also being paid for it.   Would be interesting to see how much, but I imagine since Luke is not working full time on anything but Emby that it is very lucrative.