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EMBY ATSC3


lklein

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That's a good thing.

The major problem at hand is AC-4 audio when a transcode is needed as this isn't part of ffmpeg yet.
The devs need to integrate this functionality into our custom ffmpeg build to make it seamless for Emby use.

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What will be of much bigger interest is whether the Roku would support this also with HLS streaming (MPEGTS segments). That would be really great.

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lukeoslavia
22 hours ago, RandallC said:

@Luke, any further word on timing?  I'm wondering if now's the time for me to pull the trigger on one of these puppies: https://www.amazon.com/SiliconDust-HDHomeRun-HDHR5-4K-Connect-NextGen/dp/B08MWV7YTV/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=hdhomerun+atsc+3.0&qid=1618851938&s=electronics&sr=1-1

My poor little Emby NUC has to work so hard with its simple USB tuner.  It needs relief!

@RandallC

Just a heads up based on this line: "My poor little Emby NUC has to work so hard with its simple USB tuner.  It needs relief!"

The HDHR 4k does not have any sort of transcoder built in so it will not relieve your nuc in that sense, if thats what you were after.

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Especially if pulling down higher resolution video with more advanced codecs and having more tuners available as well.  More like a triple threat. :)

@RandallC which USB tuner are you presently using and what specific problems are you having?

Edited by cayars
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lukeoslavia
Just now, cayars said:

Especially if pulling down higher resolution video with more advanced codecs and having more tuners available as well.  More like a triple threat. :)

@lukeoslavia which USB tuner are you presently using and what specific problems are you having?

@cayars Im not using one, currently running a Connect Quatro and HDHR4k. I think @RandallC was using one though!

Side Note: I know this isn't the place for it but, so far it seems the ATSC 1.0 tuners in the HDHR4K do not get as good reception as the Connect Quatro does. Just more food for thought.

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16 minutes ago, lukeoslavia said:

@cayars Im not using one, currently running a Connect Quatro and HDHR4k. I think @RandallC was using one though!

Side Note: I know this isn't the place for it but, so far it seems the ATSC 1.0 tuners in the HDHR4K do not get as good reception as the Connect Quatro does. Just more food for thought.

I have the Connect Quatro and a friend of mine has the HDHR5-4k.  We put them side by side and I did a comparaison using all 8 tuners on the same channel at the same time (Same antenna through an splitter).  Basically, I did not see any significative difference between both units in my case.  Some tuners handle a little bit better some impairements, but that was the case on both units.  Basically what I saw is that both units are pretty much the same about atsc 1.0.  That is only my experience.  I guess mileage may vary.

Edited by rouq
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Thanks, that's good info.  Being in the Phila area, we have no signs of ATSC 3 yet which is surprising for the third largest market in the US. :(

I've been looking forward to this for years as sports should be a lot better if done right!

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emveepee
1 hour ago, softworkz said:

What will be of much bigger interest is whether the Roku would support this also with HLS streaming (MPEGTS segments). That would be really great.

I used a crappy utility I wrote that generates a EXT-X-BYTERANGE m3u8 from a ts file based on pts and this HLS stream does work on the Ultra with AC-4 audio.  The bigger current issue is depending on ffmpeg to decode the AC4 and generate the HLS file.

Martin

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1 hour ago, emveepee said:

I used a crappy utility I wrote that generates a EXT-X-BYTERANGE m3u8 from a ts file based on pts and this HLS stream does work on the Ultra with AC-4 audio.  The bigger current issue is depending on ffmpeg to decode the AC4 and generate the HLS file.

Thanks for the info, that's very good news.

For AC-4 decoding: this will be added to the beta channel after the next release is out.

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3 minutes ago, softworkz said:

For AC-4 decoding: this will be added to the beta channel after the next release is out.

That's very good news softworkz.

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emveepee
39 minutes ago, softworkz said:

For AC-4 decoding: this will be added to the beta channel after the next release is out.

Decoding is partially there, there is a patch for ffmpeg out that probably won't be accepted but is an interim solution, but I have not seen a remux patch.  Is there a PR on patchworks for this yet?

Martin

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14 minutes ago, emveepee said:

Decoding is partially there, there is a patch for ffmpeg out that probably won't be accepted but is an interim solution

It's by one of the core developers of ffmpeg (uses a different name on the mailing list). The work was sponsored by videolan iirc. I don't know the reason why it hasn't been merged yet. Nobody talks about it. The patch is basically OK, but it needs a little additional work because streamtype 0x06 is used for several different kinds of streams and the only way to tell is to parse the descriptors. That's why the last commit is declared as "hack". Getting it to work with remuxing is trivial (once the former is resolved).

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RandallC
4 hours ago, cayars said:

Especially if pulling down higher resolution video with more advanced codecs and having more tuners available as well.  More like a triple threat. :)

@RandallC which USB tuner are you presently using and what specific problems are you having?

Ah, interesting - I hadn't thought of needing to do a real-time transcode just to downsample to a reasonable resolution to store.  My current setup uses a USB Hauppage, the xbox one model.  I record a lot of OTA for my kiddos - hours per day.  While recording, the NUC (5th gen i7) sees significant CPU usage which I assumed to be a result of the tuner being a USB device.  My assumption with an HDHomeRun device is that the device would relay a stream that could be saved without any transcoding - maybe I am wrong?  

Ultimately 1) I want more than 1 tuner so I can watch live TV without impeding whatever recordings are scheduled, so I have already picked up the 4k tuner I referenced (comes Thursday!) and 2) A newer NUC with better hardware encoding options would be nice, regardless - transcoding to mobile is still a thing, just happens less regularly then recording OTA.

On and as is isn't a problem per se.  I just use the NUC for other things (Valheim server anyone?) and the more CPU available, the better.

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emveepee
4 minutes ago, softworkz said:

It's by one of the core developers of ffmpeg (uses a different name on the mailing list). The work was sponsored by videolan iirc. I don't know the reason why it hasn't been merged yet. Nobody talks about it. The patch is basically OK, but it needs a little additional work because streamtype 0x06 is used for several different kinds of streams and the only way to tell is to parse the descriptors. That's why the last commit is declared as "hack". Getting it to work with remuxing is trivial (once the former is resolved).

I know and use that patch, but your comment indicate the Emby will have it in the beta channel so I though you had a remuxing solution to create HLS files already.

Martin

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1 minute ago, emveepee said:

I though you had a remuxing solution to create HLS files already

We do, but this is no longer going through ffmpeg (unless transcoding is required).

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neik
12 minutes ago, softworkz said:

We do, but this is no longer going through ffmpeg (unless transcoding is required).

Somehow related to next-gen LiveTV?
Or am I on the wrong track here... :-P

Edited by neik
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16 minutes ago, RandallC said:

Ah, interesting - I hadn't thought of needing to do a real-time transcode just to downsample to a reasonable resolution to store.

No, not to save or record.  Emby can record it "as is".  But if you were recording or watching a 4K channel on a 1080 display it would need to transcode. I think you're really going to like the new tuner(s) a lot.

Let us know after you get it going, what you CPU usage looks like.

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emveepee
5 minutes ago, softworkz said:

We do, but this is no longer going through ffmpeg (unless transcoding is required).

Gotcha, so AC-4 will only possible on those few client devices with both h/w h265 and AC-4 support to start.  

Martin

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RandallC
1 minute ago, cayars said:

No, not to save or record.  Emby can record it "as is".  But if you were recording or watching a 4K channel on a 1080 display it would need to transcode. I think you're really going to like the new tuner(s) a lot.

Let us know after you get it going, what you CPU usage looks like.

@cayars Excellent point - and a common use case in my household.  Transcoding 4k sounds like pain for my NUC.  I will report back.  Does this mean that all natively ATSC 3.0 compatible TV's are 4k sets?  

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They should be but never take it for granted.  Some crafty manufacture could downscale the image but still claim to be able to use ATSC 3.0.
This of course is any spec to check on any TV.

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5 minutes ago, neik said:

Or am I on the wrong track here... 😛

Right track... 😉 

5 minutes ago, emveepee said:

Gotcha, so AC-4 will only possible on those few client devices with both h/w h265 and AC-4 support to start.  

Well, initially it will always be transcoded There are always two steps to take:

1. implement it in the server

2. Implement a detection mechanism in the client, so that it can report to the server whether it can take it

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14 minutes ago, RandallC said:

@cayars Excellent point - and a common use case in my household.  Transcoding 4k sounds like pain for my NUC.  I will report back.  Does this mean that all natively ATSC 3.0 compatible TV's are 4k sets?  

 

2 minutes ago, cayars said:

They should be but never take it for granted.  Some crafty manufacture could downscale the image but still claim to be able to use ATSC 3.0.
This of course is any spec to check on any TV.

I'd suspect that it's very unlikely to see ATSC-3 support on low-cost TV sets (in the next 2-3 years). For mass products like TVs, every single cent in production cost matters. While there wouldn't be any extra cost for self(manufacturer)-developed software, everything else adds to the production cost: ATSC3 is a ridiculous standard, not all manufacturers will do their own implementation, so they#ll need to license some, which will generate cost per unit. Also required: HEVC decoder ASIC, HEVC patent licensing, AC-4 decoding (either own implementation or licensing the IP core from Dolby) and finally Dolby patent license cost. IIRC, the patent license is about $8 per device and patent + IP core is a few dollars more. Doesn't sound like a lot? Wrong! That cost is gigantic for low-range and even for mid-range TVs.

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The only reason I worded it that way is time and time again this happens.  Manufactures where taking 1080 broadcasts and cable feeds and downscaling them to work on 720 TVs. The same 720 TV were being marketed as HD TVs which technically is true as 1080 was considered FULL HD, but how many consumers knew the difference?  Many a person never even knew better as the TV was much better than the old SD set (everything looked better).

Hell, just using Emby Server Beta we can take a 4K HDR movie and convert it and display it on a 720 or 1080 set and have it look better than the 720 or 1080 version so anything is possible.

Nothing like this should ever happen with the big names (Samsung, Sony, Toshiba, LG, etc) brands but "buyer beware" always comes to mind especially for early adopters.

It's too easy NOT to read and understand the specs given and anyone putting down $ on a new TV should educate themselves to know what codec (video and AUDIO) and specs the unit can use. :)

But if we want to have this type of speculative conversation we should move it to the general forum and not pollute this thread.

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2 minutes ago, cayars said:

But if we want to have this type of speculative conversation we should move it to the general forum and not pollute this thread.

Well...MY post was very specific to ATSC3  😉 

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all4dom

I was reading about ATSC new standards but since I cant get anything over the air where I live, i just stopped reading about it. But my question is so the newer tvs have that included? I cant believe it's that much $$$ to incorporate that into a tv.

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