End Credits Detection for resume/next episode

[crusher11 851]

Since we can now detect end credits, or manually add them in other cases, it would be nice to see this, rather than an automatic percentage/time remaining, trigger the "next episode" popup and decide whether an episode is resumable or not.

Even better if it could expand to movies for the latter point.

[neik 837]

+1

[rbjtech 4265]

I believe this FR needs to be re-phrased - the request needs to be for the Core Introskip to add the ability to detect Credits.  I believe the core team are already aware of this and have said they will monitor interest in it.

To note - the core 'CreditStart' marker is already available in the Core (and has been imported already if you used the Intro Skip plugin and the CreditStart was previously detected or manually added).

The Plugin only allows you to auto-skip to the next episode - Linking to the 'Next Episode' OSD could then utilise this Core Credit Feature I agree and not use use a timer based system which is sometimes a poor experience.

[crusher11 851]

The under-the-hood stuff I'll leave to those with more of a clue than me (which is everyone, especially at the moment apparently), but I think the outcome behaviour I'm after is pretty clear.

If we can get it for movies as well I'll finally stop having to check how long's left in Les Vampires, Shoah and Sátántangó and then doing math to see if I can safely stop them or I'm too deep to have a resume point. Obviously that's a bit more fiddly and much more likely to require human intervention, so the default fallback state will need to be thought through, but at the same time a lot of movies have a chapter point there already if you're backing up discs and not yo-ho-hoing your way to a collection so for those instances it might be pretty simple.

[ebr 14913]

This is something we're interested in but for it to become a feature, it needs to be extremely reliable/accurate and we haven't determined yet if that's possible and at what cost.

[crusher11 851]

29 minutes ago, ebr said:

This is something we're interested in but for it to become a feature, it needs to be extremely reliable/accurate and we haven't determined yet if that's possible and at what cost.

Some of us are happy to spend time maintaining our libraries.

[rbjtech 4265]

1 hour ago, ebr said:

This is something we're interested in but for it to become a feature, it needs to be extremely reliable/accurate and we haven't determined yet if that's possible and at what cost.

It's certainly possible Eric, the Plugin does it now (and in 6 months of use, it's extremely reliable..) - the gotcha is the processing it takes to make it that accurate as we resorted to ffmpeg black frame detection - which is extremely cpu intensive as you well know.

[visproduction 122]

I understand the lack of interest in end titles... but there is the music, which I like and I find it annoying that online media services skip the titles and the music.  Many TV shows use pretty nice and different end title music for each episode.  The music choice usually matches the theme of the episode.  I am a musician.

Then there are occasionally end scenes after the titles and last, but not least, I often see people I know in the titles. So, I, personally, would not be interested in this plug in.

[crusher11 851]

Then you've completely misunderstood what I'm asking for.

[sydlexius 241]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:50 AM, visproduction said:

I understand the lack of interest in end titles... but there is the music, which I like and I find it annoying that online media services skip the titles and the music.  Many TV shows use pretty nice and different end title music for each episode.  The music choice usually matches the theme of the episode.  I am a musician.

Then there are occasionally end scenes after the titles and last, but not least, I often see people I know in the titles. So, I, personally, would not be interested in this plug in.

I believe @crusher11 is asking to display an end-credit skip button instead of the "play next episode" prompt if the end-credits are properly detected.  I too am not a fan of being forced to skip end credits unless I opt out within a short time-frame (looking at you, Netflix) because sometimes I want to hear the music!  The current implementation of the introskip button does not timeout, which is perfect!

[crusher11 851]

I'm not even asking for a button that isn't already there. When you're near the end of an episode, there's a "next episode in X seconds" popup. Currently, it kicks off at a set time remaining, which could well be while the show is still on, or even deep into the show's credits. I have some basketball games where that popup is triggered with ten seconds remaining in a close game, giving away the fact that it can't possibly go into overtime.

In terms of movies, Shoah is 9 hours long and has, like, a minute of credits. Which means you can still have half an hour of the actual movie left, but be well over the "maximum resume percentage" threshold, which means if you stop the movie you lose your spot. On the flipside, The Matrix Resurrections has credits so long that if you stop the movie when the credits start, it pops into "Continue Watching" and allows you to resume it.

If the server knew when the credits started, it could use that to determine whether to make a movie resumable or not.

[sydlexius 241]

2 minutes ago, crusher11 said:

I'm not even asking for a button that isn't already there. When you're near the end of an episode, there's a "next episode in X seconds" popup. Currently, it kicks off at a set time remaining, which could well be while the show is still on, or even deep into the show's credits. I have some basketball games where that popup is triggered with ten seconds remaining in a close game, giving away the fact that it can't possibly go into overtime.

In terms of movies, Shoah is 9 hours long and has, like, a minute of credits. Which means you can still have half an hour of the actual movie left, but be well over the "maximum resume percentage" threshold, which means if you stop the movie you lose your spot. On the flipside, The Matrix Resurrections has credits so long that if you stop the movie when the credits start, it pops into "Continue Watching" and allows you to resume it.

If the server knew when the credits started, it could use that to determine whether to make a movie resumable or not.

My mistake.  I just thought you were annoyed by the redundancy of having both options on screen simultaneously   

[visproduction 122]

That is a challenge to get the user experience right for this type of feature.  I had not even thought of the issue that timing close to the end of a video will give away a sports outcome. 

I think post production and studio master control work in the industry, minimize the titles are manually done by a video editor, for each content.  It is a union thing.  Ha!  Online, it seems like it might be automated watching for credits in the title.  I wonder, it might be also set exactly by an live editor, when content is posted.

Making an on / off admin choice and set the time to start to offer "jump to next episode" would solve the problem of getting it wrong.... but that is so layered and a lot of work if you have 60 episodes.  Who would bother using it?

Sorry I don't use this, so maybe some of these items are already in plugins.  When I write it all out, I see that the feature can bloat to someone quite large and you have to ask is it really worth everything here?  How many people would use this.  Anyway, here is a feature wish list.

1. TV shows get an admin control to auto create a "jump to next episode" button (variable) X number of seconds from the end.
2. Set the option timer to not auto jump and just time out - or set it to automatically jump.
3. Dbase data with start pop-up X number milla seconds from end of video for each video.  This makes it possible for users to fine tune any video for this feature.
4. On / off per show controlled from somewhere.  Metadata for the show?
5. Option to add this to movies or music videos and set the next audio / video switchable to:
   1. Random next
   2. Based on similar results
   3. Next video - next release date, inside a collection.
   4. Next latest addition to the library.
   5. User selected play a specific video to allways play next. (probably requires another cell in the dbase.)
6. Admin easy on / off switch  - maybe a admin only visible On / off box in the card so you can easily check and change from just the card.
7. Maybe a switch to make the card admin data visible or display:none; so the admin can look at an entire library with a glance and see the status of this feature and then turn the visible info off.
8. User's without admin rights, just never see any of this.
    

 

[crusher11 851]

Well ATV's just implemented this for the "next episode" popup.

I'd still love to see it affect resuming and come into play for movies as well.

[crusher11 851]

@Cheesegeezer

[crusher11 851]

@Cheesegeezer I still don't know what you meant in the other thread about chapter names and languages and such.

[Cheesegeezer 3086]

2 hours ago, crusher11 said:

@Cheesegeezer I still don't know what you meant in the other thread about chapter names and languages and such.

You were saying that 90% of your movies had the End Credit chapter in the embedded chapters and why not use that. 
All i was saying if we were to use them, to identify and add a marker to the item(movie) then it would need to be coded for all scenarios. 
 

i have actually already built a test application which uses OCR for end credit detection when we were looking at end credit detection for introskip plugin, and is very reliable however its time consuming and could be CPU intensive. 
 

here is a video of it in action(couldn’t use camstudio as that takes up ffmpeg instance) 

 

 

[crusher11 851]

39 minutes ago, Cheesegeezer said:

You were saying that 90% of your movies had the End Credit chapter in the embedded chapters and why not use that. 
All i was saying if we were to use them, to identify and add a marker to the item(movie) then it would need to be coded for all scenarios. 

All what scenarios?

[Cheesegeezer 3086]

24 minutes ago, crusher11 said:

All what scenarios?

are we just going round in circles here.  

1. Do all of your tv shows/movies have End Credits as the Chapter title in them?  - Most likely not
2. Foreign films/tv shows will display "End Credits" in their own language. 

So if you can think of every possibility for just English End Credit Chapter Naming conventions and then Multiply that by the number of languages out there.  You can see that your theory starts to grow arms and legs.

It is NOT a good solution to the problem.  So lets put it bed.

Cheers

[crusher11 851]

No chapters on Blu-ray rips are titled. It's irrelevant.

However.

Is the last chapter within one second of the end of the file? Set the second-last chapter as the end credits. If not, set the last chapter as end credits.

That will work 90% of the time, at least for movies recent enough to have end credits. Any detection done around that point would be a bonus.

[rbjtech 4265]

You cannot simply 'guess' these marker points - getting them wrong could be an annoyance, or it could ruin the ending to an epic film.

End film credits is even more difficult that episode end credits as you have nothing to compare against.

The success rate the Core and we are aiming for is 98% correct - if we can't achieve this - then it stays as a Beta initiative.

[crusher11 851]

How could it ruin the ending? I'm talking about it setting the resume marker. It's not gonna dump out or anything. There's no point doing that for movies, there's no next episode to skip to like there is with TV.

[crusher11 851]

And hell, it could just be added under the hood and make movies editable in the chapter editor we know is coming. No detection required.

[rbjtech 4265]

12 minutes ago, crusher11 said:

How could it ruin the ending? I'm talking about it setting the resume marker. It's not gonna dump out or anything. There's no point doing that for movies, there's no next episode to skip to like there is with TV.

If it just did that yes, but it maybe needs to trigger lights going back on for example - if it got that wrong, then it will potentially ruin things.

You resume marker idea is just part of a much wider view on gathering requirements .. some of which will never be implemented because they are exceptions and frankly not worth anybody's time to develop and test .. 

[crusher11 851]

22 minutes ago, rbjtech said:

If it just did that yes, but it maybe needs to trigger lights going back on for example - if it got that wrong, then it will potentially ruin things.

That happened to me in an actual cinema once (Straw Dogs, specifically - during the home invasion scene at the end of the film), so it's really just another way of recreating the authentic cinema experience when you think about it.

But also, visibly catastrophic things don't need to be enabled for resume markers to be enabled. The chapter marker thing was just a note about a way to make detection easier for people whose collections are actually legal, not a be-all end-all. If you can pretty much guarantee credits being at a certain point, you can just check around that point. You'll succeed 90% of the time, more complex processes need only be undertaken in those 10% of cases.

And again, we can ignore detection entirely if we allow people to just manually flag things.