Abobader 2945 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 3 minutes ago, TeamB said: I agree and would love to know exactly what is collected and how it is used, but I understand that companies are never going to share that, it would be hard to maintain and really not that useful to 99% of the user base, so the generic privacy statement is what most companies use. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke 37071 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 minutes ago, TeamB said: I disagree, (ban incoming). The privacy notice is generic, what they are saying is correct, they just want the specifics of what is being collected and shared. https://emby.media/privacy.html I agree and would love to know exactly what is collected and how it is used, but I understand that companies are never going to share that, it would be hard to maintain and really not that useful to 99% of the user base, so the generic privacy statement is what most companies use. HI, we are discussing this whole thing internally, including the document. I can see what you mean because when you look at it from a glance, it mentions "website" in several places and this needs to be updated. It is a document that is intended to apply to both the website and software, but I think there are places where it is not specific enough. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abobader 2945 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 11 minutes ago, lukeoslavia said: You did ban me...and until I talked to Luke on another account, I couldn't even see the forums anymore That not true, no ban was made on your account, you know this my last post in this thread, and indeed that indicated you did not fully read my post. BTW, I am the forum admin, and do not work for Luke or anyone else here. So I approve your post after I had the time to read it and found it ok as a request for Ebr to answer your post, that all. If you still want to remove your account, I will, we normally do not want any one to leave the community for any reason, but we tried very hard to keep this community as clean in post matters as well clear fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Abobader said: That not try, no ban was made on your account, you know this my last post in this thread, and indeed that indicated you did not fully read my post. BTW, I am the forum admin, and do not work for Luke or anyone else here. So I approve your post after I had the time to read it and found it ok as a request for Ebr to answer your post, that all. If you still want to remove your account, I will, we normally do not want any one to leave the community for any reason, but we tried very hard to keep this community as clean in post matters as well clear fact. @Abobader I'm not sure if you meant to or not, but I still am unable to reach the forums currently without having my vpn on and using a private browser mode. I don't see how that could have happened accidentally, but if you say you didn't ill take your word and be on my way. I do still wish to have my account removed. Thank you. Edited February 8 by lukeoslavia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 minutes ago, lukeoslavia said: I do still wish to have my account removed. nah man stick around, you are helping effect change, read Lukes message, it is discussions like this that helps everyone. I will be the first to agree that the community on this forum is tight and if you upset them they all band together and attack, you had some valid points and in the end we got to a place where we can talk about the core issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speechles 1919 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, lukeoslavia said: @speechles While I agree this is funny, maybe as an emby team member you should focus on calming down the person who is actually making personal attacks and using profanity in your forums instead of implying that I should calm down for responding in a calm demeanor. But hey, if the emby team is not open to criticism, then I guess I am just wasting my time here and the forums are all for not? I did not mean anyone specific in my post of that Taylor Swift song. I posted the song so others would not join into this debate. I am sure I am not the only one reading this thread who saw it "Going South". Also I cannot perform those actions to punish users on these forums when they misbehave and attack with text. I help out on the Roku app and try to solve issues on the forum. We focus on what is important to our users and we listen to their input. We do not put the focus on monetizing your browsing/profile data, sending your watched lists to other users, or forcing you to tie your users to our services where we can spam them to death. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh_48 943 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) I detest "privacy statements" and I also believe that they are worth nothing as they are generally written by lawyers (Upholstered parasites) and made so vague that their meaning can be almost anything. There is a big difference between: "We collect no user identifiable data" and "This is the data we collect and nothing else" (followed by a list of what is collected) While they may seem similar it is much harder for the Upholstered parasites to twist the meaning of the second than the first. However I have never seen a privacy statement that avoids vague wording and statements that can be twisted to mean almost anything. Since the lawyers have taken over almost everything I trust almost nothing and, where I can I actually check what is "collected" and avoid many things/programs that even seem sketchy. Plex collects a LOT of data in a form that contains user identifiable data and they may remove user data after they get it but no one can prove that to my satisfaction. So far I have never seen any user identifiable data being sent by Emby but that does not mean they are perfect. I just do not see how anything Emby has collected could harm me at all. By the way Jellyfin came into existence (They technically did not steal anything but it just feels like theft) I believe they are untrustworthy and therefore I do not trust them to do as stated in their privacy statement. I have not, except very briefly about 2-3 years ago, installed Jellyfin and briefly tested it. I found it severely lacking in both stability and proper operation but the current Jellyfin could be rather different. I just won't use it simply because of the underhanded way they got started. Currently I refuse to use Plex because they have lied to me many times and using Plex simply to watch media (which is all I do) and I think the lawyers that wrote their privacy statement made extra effort to make sure that they could do almost anything and that is exactly how Plex behaves. It should be noted that Emby's privacy statement is only a little better (again clearly written by layers) but Emby has also, so far at least, behaved like they are quite honest. This thread should remain open but I believe the moderation efforts should get very tight and bans should be both more likely and tightly enforced. I usually enjoy differences and like to hear many sides of an issue (sometimes I have actually changed my mind) but too many times this thread has become little more than a forum for name calling and making up stuff on both sides and that kind of rhetoric is not helpful to anyone. I have to single out @Abobader and say that he has shown remarkable restraint. I wish we could have a good discussion of all three media managers as to the pros/cons and feature groups and debate, civilly but that seem highly unlikely, at least in this thread and it is equally impossible for any forum on a website that belongs to any involved company to produce such a debate and have it not favor the hosting party. @Abobader I really hope you can avoid locking this thread but I will also understand if you cannot. Edited February 9 by Gilgamesh_48 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abobader 2945 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 hours ago, TeamB said: nah man stick around We never like to see anyone no matters what rank that member be to leave the community. 5 hours ago, TeamB said: you are helping effect change, read Lukes message, it is discussions like this that helps everyone That not true regarding the fact about "collection users data", Luke simply said consider to re write the "document". 5 hours ago, TeamB said: I will be the first to agree that the community on this forum is tight and if you upset them they all band together and attack, you had some valid points and in the end we got to a place where we can talk about the core issue. Again, that not true in any way here, you are old members and know very well we do not do that, look to many threads that always turn against Emby in many way, and whom made that threads/post never get banned, and these threads/posts still open. Again, the action was made on that member to restricted his post to be approve by the mod's team, the reason I already said about it in my reply to him, you go a head and read it, no one hide it, then I simply give him notice that whet he kept asking and indicated Emby in true fact "collecting users data", when it not true, as Luke and Ebr answer him more than once. Then he post about if Ebr would change or modify the document (after the post restricted on his account made), so I got the time to read it and find it it fair and fine, so I approve the post, end of the story, nothing more or less. 1 hour ago, Gilgamesh_48 said: I really hope you can avoid locking this thread but I will also understand if you cannot. No one will close/lock this thread or any threads here no matters what, so do not worry about that buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambtalk 43 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, Gilgamesh_48 said: By the way Jellyfin came into existence (They technically did not steal anything but it just feels like theft) I believe they are untrustworthy and therefore I do not trust them to do as stated in their privacy statement.... I just won't use it simply because of the underhanded way they got started. I wish we could have a good discussion of all three media managers as to the pros/cons and feature groups and debate, civilly... Edited your comment down to focus on the parts I wanted to repond to. But I'd love to have a conversation with you in some form (probably not this thread) about why forking open source software feels like theft to you, and why you feel that jellyfin is untrustworthy, despite all the code being open to inspect and confirm no sort of data is being collected. I mean that completely in good faith by the way, as I'm always happy to engage in conversation or debate when there's conflicting views on a topic. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 35 minutes ago, Abobader said: That not true regarding the fact about "collection users data", Luke simply said consider to re write the "document". That is what they were asking for, a clearer privacy document on what is collected and how it is used. They were not asking for changes to the product or data collection. 40 minutes ago, Abobader said: Again, that not true in any way here, you are old members and know very well we do not do that This was not directed at you or the admin team here in particular, it was not about locking or banning, it was more directed at the general user base of Emby that use this forum, if you say the something negative about Emby you can very quickly have a few of the more hard core users start to get snippy and dismissive, this is not just this forum but the internet in general I guess, but you can see it here on this forum and I have seen it a number of times over the years. 2 hours ago, Gilgamesh_48 said: I wish we could have a good discussion of all three media managers as to the pros/cons and feature groups and debate, civilly but that seem highly unlikely, at least in this thread and it is equally impossible for any forum on a website that belongs to any involved company to produce such a debate and have it not favor the hosting party. It can be hard, people/users of a platform get invested, and it feels personal when someone points out issues they are having with your favourite media software, it is easier to throw it back at them than try to empathise and work out what their problem is. Perhaps a thread on the Home Lab forum on redit: https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/ I actually think this thread has been civil, no name-calling yet, some of the hard core fans here can get very in your face but in general most people here are cool and have some level of chill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abobader 2945 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Thanks @TeamB and well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien_ 24 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 11 hours ago, lukeoslavia said: @Abobader I'm not sure if you meant to or not, but I still am unable to reach the forums currently without having my vpn on and using a private browser mode. I don't see how that could have happened accidentally, but if you say you didn't ill take your word and be on my way. I do still wish to have my account removed. Thank you. Its funny emby data gets challenged at the same time when plex is going through a small reckoning regarding their data practices. . Just a few.. https://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/17/08/21/0318210/plex-responds-will-allow-users-to-opt-out-of-data-collection https://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/180kavz/privacy_settings_sharing_watch_history_ad_partners/ https://www.plex.tv/about/privacy-legal/#:~:text=Plex may share Personal Data,marketers%2C and cloud service providers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14913 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 @lukeoslaviaI don't wish you to leave the community either. I think you've been somewhat intentionally pointed in your questions but I've answered them the best that I can. We need a privacy policy that covers every part of our operation - which includes this forum. The forum itself is nothing but a huge set of "shared" information from individuals so requires a pretty broad policy to properly cover all possible outcomes. We also have the ability for 3rd parties to write plug-ins for our system and cannot always know or control their actions (but try our best to make sure nothing objectionable is ever done in them). We don't have the team of lawyers that others may have to craft something super specific but I don't really think we need one either because it has always been our policy that your server is your server, your content is your content. We do absolutely none of this: 6 hours ago, Damien_ said: https://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/17/08/21/0318210/plex-responds-will-allow-users-to-opt-out-of-data-collection https://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/180kavz/privacy_settings_sharing_watch_history_ad_partners/ https://www.plex.tv/about/privacy-legal/#:~:text=Plex may share Personal Data,marketers%2C and cloud service providers. We never know what is on your server or what you are watching. That isn't our business model. That is exactly Plex's business model, however. You can either accept that or not. Your prerogative. Prosper. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfroop21 38 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 16 minutes ago, ebr said: We never know what is on your server or what you are watching. That isn't our business model. That is exactly Plex's business model, however. ....which is why: 1. Plex has such a comprehensive policy posted. Because they have to cover their butt with both hands because they use all but personally identifying information. 2. I'm here using Emby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/125464-streaming-media-company-plex-raises-40m-as-it-nears-profitability/ Quote As a result of Plex’s ability to track users’ media discovery behavior and consumption across platforms and services, the company has a unique perspective from a data standpoint. That will be the focus of its future business initiatives, too. “One of the things we’ve already started to prove in 2023 is that we can absolutely monetize some of that data…in a very privacy-friendly way. There’s no personally identifiable information being used,” Valory said. “We already proved we could make money on that this year, so, in 2024, we’re putting more wood behind that arrow. And arguably, even though our current business is already growing 30%-40% per year, that could dwarf it in two to three years. That is a really big market opportunity,” he added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 4 hours ago, ebr said: We never know what is on your server or what you are watching. That isn't our business model. but do you state that in your privacy statement? i trust you but that trust has been built up over many years, a new and skeptical user just sees "we don't do that sort of thing here, trust us bro" trakt is another one that is a little more forthcoming and explicit in their privacy statement. https://trakt.tv/privacy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh_48 943 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 46 minutes ago, TeamB said: but do you state that in your privacy statement? ... Do you actually trust any privacy statement or, for that matter, user agreements? Personally I do NOT. I believe that, in these times, trusting anything lawyers write or say. They are paid and trained to lie and hide the lie very well and our modern politics shows exactly how lawyers have had the "ethical" and "honesty" trained/taught out of them. There is the old "trust but verify" statement but lawyers cannot be trusted and their statements are often so riddled with misstatements and bald faced lies that I find it hard to believe. I do, currently, trust Emby but the more lawyers get involved the less that trust continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 minutes ago, Gilgamesh_48 said: Do you actually trust any privacy statement or, for that matter, user agreements? Personally I do NOT. I believe that, in these times, trusting anything lawyers write or say. They are paid and trained to lie and hide the lie very well and our modern politics shows exactly how lawyers have had the "ethical" and "honesty" trained/taught out of them. There is the old "trust but verify" statement but lawyers cannot be trusted and their statements are often so riddled with misstatements and bald faced lies that I find it hard to believe. I do, currently, trust Emby but the more lawyers get involved the less that trust continues. woh, show me on the dolly where the bad lawyer hurt you. HOLD UP...I am joking, probably not a very good task joke in this day and age, but is an old and mostly good. They are all bullshit anyway, this statement in all of them is what makes them all usless: https://emby.media/privacy.html Quote Changes to Our Privacy Policy EMBY reserves the right to change this Privacy Policy at any time without notice to you. Any changes will be effective immediately upon the posting of the revised Privacy Policy. EMBY will not, however, use your Personal Information without your consent in a manner materially different than what was stated at the time it was collected. So the policy covering your PII (name, address, contact details are safe), remember this covers this forum and the purchasing systems, can not change. BUT any usage data that may or may not be collected is not covered by this, if this policy changes the changes affect all collected data. However, trust me bro, they don't collect data Also the above privacy policy does not cover the product. Is there a separate product service privacy policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedfroop21 38 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 6 hours ago, ebr said: We don't have the team of lawyers that others may have to craft something super specific but I don't really think we need one either because it has always been our policy that your server is your server, your content is your content. Yup. It's like Johns Auto Repair and Honest Johns Auto Repair.......honest people never think to put honest in their name..... If you don't collect that data you don't think you need to state you don't collect that data...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh_48 943 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 3 hours ago, tedfroop21 said: Yup. It's like Johns Auto Repair and Honest Johns Auto Repair.......honest people never think to put honest in their name..... If you don't collect that data you don't think you need to state you don't collect that data...... Yep. But I wonder, have you stopped beating your wife? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14913 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 18 hours ago, TeamB said: but do you state that in your privacy statement? Without employing more lawyers, I don't think we can afford to make that explicit statement there. For instance, someone may post out here on this forum that they watched "such and such" and now we have "knowledge" of what someone has and watched and shared it with the world. 16 hours ago, TeamB said: Also the above privacy policy does not cover the product From the beginning of the doc: Quote This Privacy Policy applies to the Website available at www.emby.media and other interactive features, downloads, applications and widgets available through the Website, regardless of whether accessed via computer, mobile device or otherwise (collectively, the “Website”), which are operated and available at https://www.emby.media or any related domains and/or subdomains (“EMBY”, “we,” “us,” or “our”). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamB 2353 Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 (edited) 7 hours ago, ebr said: Without employing more lawyers, I don't think we can afford to make that explicit statement there. For instance, someone may post out here on this forum that they watched "such and such" and now we have "knowledge" of what someone has and watched and shared it with the world. From the beginning of the doc: that is a big catch-all, it's a good thing we all trust you Perhaps it might be a good idea for someone to do a privacy analysis of the emby ecosystem, not trying to point any fingers but just have is a list of data that leaks out of your system. Example: Server - Metadata lookup (you share your library with metadata providers) this is not PII identifiable, but they do have your IP - Subtitles, currently you need an account with the provider so they have info about lib items you have requested Sub for - Plugin LDAP auth server will have user logins - Emby licensing check - Emby version check - 3rd Party plugins ???? - ... And then there are clients, who the hell knows what they report back to the app stores they come from. As you can see it is not a simple task and I understand the need for broad privacy statements. If you are really paranoid and want to know for sure what is being collected Jellyfin might be your go to, or just set up a share on your NAS and use Kodi to play back your media Edited February 10 by TeamB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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