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EMBY on same server with PLEX LiveTV

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#1 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 11:57 AM

I am STRICTLY interested in LiveTV/DVR feature/functionality so all my comments/questions are restricted to that context.

 

I'm ready to test EMBY with the intent to migrate from PLEX.

  1. I understand I need a Premiere membership for this feature. Is there a FREE trial pass?????
  2. If not and I purchase a monthly and decide to move forward purchasing an EMBY Lifetime, does the monthly cost at all get prorated in the Lifetime cost?  
  3. Can I set up EMBY on the same server as my current PLEX setup?  I currently have 2 Hauppauge Quad PCI cards on an i7-4770 with 8Gb memory and plenty of disk space.
  4. Is 8Gb memory sufficient for EMBY LiveTV/DVR?
  5. Can I share the tuners between EMBY and PLEX or do I need to allocate them independently?
  6. I presume I can't share the tuners so ....  In PLEX the tuners show up as 4 two tuner devices (just like device manager, duh, see attached) and that's how they get assigned in the PLEX LiveTV/DVR setup.  Can I allocate only 2 tuners to EMBY or must I allocate an entire 4 tuner card?Attached File  tuners.JPG   27.86KB   12 downloads
  7. I currently use ROKU devices (Ultras, Stick_, Stick - all most current) and an ATV4K (also most current) for clients.  Does EMBY support native MPEG2 on the above listed clients (i.e. No transcoding required for LiveTV)
  8. Any thing else I should consider????

Thank you very much in advance.

 



#2 Luke OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:09 PM

Hi there is no free trial although it's something we need to improve in the future.

Yes you can run side by side with the other server without having to allocate tuners.

Yes the space is sufficient, and we can direct play mpeg2 on any device that natively supports it.

#3 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:36 PM

THANKS for your response.

 

So I can leave the tuners allocated to PLEX and EMBY can share them?  How does PLEX know if EMBY has grabbed a tuner?

 

Would my monthly purchase be applied towards my lifetime if I converted after the month????

 

Hi there is no free trial although it's something we need to improve in the future.

Yes you can run side by side with the other server without having to allocate tuners.

Yes the space is sufficient, and we can direct play mpeg2 on any device that natively supports it.



#4 rouq OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 02:26 PM

Plex is a bad neighbor. It doesn't play fair about tuners sharing. It assumes that it is the only one using the tuner devices. However, since you have 2 tuner devices, add your second device first in emby. The idea is to use 1 device as primary in Plex and the second as primary in emby. After that, you need to be careful with the schedule recordings. It's the way I setup emby and plex on the same machine (2 hdhomerun devices). I did not have any issue that way.
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#5 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 02:36 PM

In PLEX you have to tell it about the tuners and which channels the tuner can receive so keeping PLEX off specific tuners shouldn't be an issue.

 

Are you saying to don't have to provision (tell) EMBY which tuners it's allowed to use and the channels that can be received for each tuner?????  That's why I was confused a bit by the previous post on sharing ;)

Plex is a bad neighbor. It doesn't play fair about tuners sharing. It assumes that it is the only one using the tuner devices. However, since you have 2 tuner devices, add your second device first in emby. The idea is to use 1 device as primary in Plex and the second as primary in emby. After that, you need to be careful with the schedule recordings. It's the way I setup emby and plex on the same machine (2 hdhomerun devices). I did not have any issue that way.


Edited by rakstr, 13 February 2019 - 02:37 PM.


#6 rouq OFFLINE  

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 02:45 PM

In PLEX you have to tell it about the tuners and which channels the tuner can receive so keeping PLEX off specific tuners shouldn't be an issue.

 

Are you saying to don't have to provision (tell) EMBY which tuners it's allowed to use and the channels that can be received for each tuner?????  That's why I was confused a bit by the previous post on sharing ;)

 

By this reply, I have to assume that the way it works with Hauppauge Quad PCI cards is different with HDhomerun.  With HDhomerun tuners, in plex, I can't specifiy what tuners it can use or not neither with emby.  However, there is a difference between plex and emby.  Plex pre-select the tuner at schedule time.  Emby doesn't do that.  So plex, if that specific tuner is not available, the recording fail.  with emby, it will request a tuner, if it's denied, it will try another one until there is no other tuners to try.

 

but that is with HDhomerun tuner,  I never tried PCI card.  I thought it would work the same, but based on your comment it seems not.  Sorry I can't help more.


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#7 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 01:40 PM

The issue here is Plex and not Emby.

Emby will "fail over" to the next tuner, Plex will not.

 

For example you have 

PCI1 - 4 tuners

PCI2 - 4 tuners

 

If Emby is using 1 tuner from PCI1 there are still 3 available but Plex will assume 4 are free.

Plex will use 3 tuners just fine but the problem happens when Plex tries to use the 4th tuner.  It will expect it to be available on PCI1.  When it can't allocate the tuner it "errors out".  Plex won't try PCI2 which still has 4 tuners available.

 

This is just the DUMB way Plex wrote their software.  It's double worse when you consider that Plex is supposed to work with NETWORK tuners.  Network tuners by their very definition are network devices and should be able to be shared.

 

With Emby you can run NextPVR, HDHomeRun or any other program that can use a tuner.  Emby will just try the "next" tuner until all tuners are in use.  Plex "dies" when it can't access all tuners in order.  You could have 4 PCI boards or 4 Quatros (with 16 total tuners) and plex will balk as soon as it hits the 4th tuner on PCI1 if a tuner there is in use!  POOR, SLOPPY PROGRAMMING.

 

This issue with Plex was well known before a single customer every got their hands on it. I and other Ninjas who had early access for testing brought this to the devs attention right away.  Same with not being able to easily mix OTA and cable tuners or the ability to use multiple EPGs.

 

So just keep that in mind while testing.  It won't be a big deal however as you'll quickly see how much better Emby is for recording and will stop using Plex for that pretty quickly.  LOL


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#8 paulsalter OFFLINE  

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:08 PM

With a recent update, Plex now picks up the next available instead of giving a failed recording

 

I have keyword recordings set with NextPVR and in the past if this was recording Plex would fail, now it picks up the next available tuner

 

Might not work for all tuners, but certainly does now on my USB one



#9 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 16 February 2019 - 06:14 PM

Are you talking about tuners or devices?

It's always been fine with using all tuners on the first device.  It just wouldn't roll over to the next device.  If for example you had 4 HRHomeRun devices then if Plex was blocked from using tuner #3 on device 1 it would fail vs trying device 2 or device 3.  So any other program that used a tuner could screw things up.  Also if a device had a hickup or bad cable it would just kill the tv/dvr service since it wouldn't fail over to the next device.



#10 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 16 February 2019 - 07:46 PM

There's a LOT of sloppy programming on PLEX at least with LiveTV/DVR.  It seems to be a "one man show" in many situations with their DEVs relying on users to do all the testing.  Their transcoding software for MPEG2 to H264 is also terrible, so glad ROKU released direct MPEG2 support.

 

I know of multiple people in PLEX forum jail for 30 days for reporting on bugs still not fixed in the recent release after waiting 2 months since the December disaster.  sa2000 and BigWheel seem to be working OT deleting posts and suspending people to keep Elan from seeing them ;)

 

Can I restrict EMBY to certain devices/tuners?  I've got two quad cards and would like to just assign one to PLEX and one to EMBY (4 tuners each).  If that's a huge issue I'll just run to different machines until I make my final decision.

 

I can't believe we're a year+ into this LiveTV/DVR stuff and still farkling around with reliably tuning in channels on PLEX and making no progress on actual DVR features....  I'm still getting about 50% failure on channel changes for LiveTV :(

 

As soon as I figure out how to move forward to split my tuners I'll invest in an EMBY Premium subscription to begin my try outs.

The issue here is Plex and not Emby.

Emby will "fail over" to the next tuner, Plex will not.

 

For example you have 

PCI1 - 4 tuners

PCI2 - 4 tuners

 

If Emby is using 1 tuner from PCI1 there are still 3 available but Plex will assume 4 are free.

Plex will use 3 tuners just fine but the problem happens when Plex tries to use the 4th tuner.  It will expect it to be available on PCI1.  When it can't allocate the tuner it "errors out".  Plex won't try PCI2 which still has 4 tuners available.

 

This is just the DUMB way Plex wrote their software.  It's double worse when you consider that Plex is supposed to work with NETWORK tuners.  Network tuners by their very definition are network devices and should be able to be shared.

 

With Emby you can run NextPVR, HDHomeRun or any other program that can use a tuner.  Emby will just try the "next" tuner until all tuners are in use.  Plex "dies" when it can't access all tuners in order.  You could have 4 PCI boards or 4 Quatros (with 16 total tuners) and plex will balk as soon as it hits the 4th tuner on PCI1 if a tuner there is in use!  POOR, SLOPPY PROGRAMMING.

 

This issue with Plex was well known before a single customer every got their hands on it. I and other Ninjas who had early access for testing brought this to the devs attention right away.  Same with not being able to easily mix OTA and cable tuners or the ability to use multiple EPGs.

 

So just keep that in mind while testing.  It won't be a big deal however as you'll quickly see how much better Emby is for recording and will stop using Plex for that pretty quickly.  LOL


Edited by rakstr, 16 February 2019 - 07:51 PM.


#11 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 09:02 AM

There's a LOT of sloppy programming on PLEX at least with LiveTV/DVR.  It seems to be a "one man show" in many situations with their DEVs relying on users to do all the testing.  Their transcoding software for MPEG2 to H264 is also terrible, so glad ROKU released direct MPEG2 support.

You said, what I know. :)

I know of multiple people in PLEX forum jail for 30 days for reporting on bugs still not fixed in the recent release after waiting 2 months since the December disaster.  sa2000 and BigWheel seem to be working OT deleting posts and suspending people to keep Elan from seeing them ;)

Elan does quite a bit of this himself. Look at all the posts he silenced of mine back in December concerning the new UI. Then turns around and quotes my posts when they reversed decisions on the UI. Everything he disagreed we me for 2 years on, now fully agrees with me on the design and problems it caused. This was all pointed out to them during the design cycle of PMP2 (and other clients) way before regular users ever saw it. None of the active Ninjas like it, most still don't. LOL
 
I was one of the main DVR/Live TV testers early on as well.  Same thing. I pointed out the design flaws when it was still a prototype which is really what it still is IMHO. They were trying to play catch up to Emby to get DVR/TV out the door and were ok with only having basic functionality, working with a single device, only supporting a single EPG, etc.  Hasn't really improved to much in that sense.  But boy were they proud of having Gracenote EPG data integrated.  They thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and would make setup so much easier then other DVRs.  Piff, it's got to work before that really matters.  LOL
 
I don't know how early you started using it but they went through I think 7 different formats trying to get a container/codec combination they could use with their devices.  I know at least 3 changes were released/seen publicly before they settled on TS.  The problem is that the devs working on that part of the code had never worked on TV or DVR before and really hadn't used them besides STBs.  
 
BTW, none of this is secret and I've posted the same info in the Plex forums. Not anything resembling a secret for anyone who visits their forums regularly.
 

Can I restrict EMBY to certain devices/tuners?  I've got two quad cards and would like to just assign one to PLEX and one to EMBY (4 tuners each).  If that's a huge issue I'll just run to different machines until I make my final decision.
 
I can't believe we're a year+ into this LiveTV/DVR stuff and still farkling around with reliably tuning in channels on PLEX and making no progress on actual DVR features....  I'm still getting about 50% failure on channel changes for LiveTV :(
 
As soon as I figure out how to move forward to split my tuners I'll invest in an EMBY Premium subscription to begin my try outs.

Yes, you can actually restrict both Plex and Emby to certain devices (not specific tuners).  Just don't set them up. :)  So if you have two different devices you could setup one in Plex and other other in Emby.  You really need to do this for Plex as it doesn't want to "share" tuners with any other app.  Emby doesn't care.  With Emby if you happen to use LiveChannels, HDHomeRun, NextPVR, VLC or any other app that is using a tuner, Emby will just go past that tuner and find another free turner to use until they are all exhausted.  Plex won't do this.  If Plex sees a device as having 4 tuners (in your case), it expects all 4 tuners to always be available exclusively for it's own use.  Doesn't matter if it's a network device meant to be shared on not, Plex assumes it belongs to it.

 

So for testing purposes, running both servers definitely assign one to each and keep them separate otherwise Plex will choke.  But like nearly everyone else you'll quickly find out, Emby is much better and will switch all TV and DVR over to it. :)

 

BTW, you can setup a "Recording Library" or two (one movies, one Shows) in Plex pointed to the Emby recording folders and use Plex to playback Emby recorded video.  Plex can even playback recordings in progress this way.  Ironically, this works better in Plex for recordings in progress then using it's own DVR.

 

One other thing I'll mention.  If you look at the recording folders in Plex vs Emby you'll see that Emby records directly to a TS file that grows as the file is recorded.  With Plex it uses HLS segments which write tons of small TS files, then after recording is finished combines them back into one file.  Doing that is much harder on disc life and will wear out SSDs much faster due to the numerous writes.  So if using Plex for recording, don't setup an expensive SSD as the path for recording unless you want it to have a shorter life.  Use a "throw away cheap SSD" or normal HDD.  This doesn't apply to Emby.

 

So now that you know how to setup one device for each media server, grab yourself a month of Emby Premiere and get testing.  You'll quickly wish you did this sooner!


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#12 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 03:19 PM

Ya, I'm well aware of Elan and the December massacre :)

 

I often tell people similar to what you said.  It's as though they don't have anyone who knows what people expect from LiveTV/DVR and/or don't care.  They may just be interested in checking boxes.  Seen that many times.  I think personally that Elan wants a sell out payday and to move on.  Unfortunately I think they've missed any window they may have had by about 2 years.  Maybe that's why they ignored the looming ROKU API deprecation to the last minute ;)

 

I've also had chats with some of the providers of the SDKs that PLEX devs misuse for video and transcode.  Basically he said they just won't listen when told they're not using them correctly.  I also checked into one of the made up "causes" from sa2000 about Intel driver bugs, especially after the same problem turned up in other HW acceleration products :)  Turns out my "contacts" could find zero, ziltch, no submissions to the "software support folks" and sa2000 made that accusation back in May of 2018.

 

I started testing PLEX in January last year so I've seen just about all I need to see.  I did software for a living in my early years and have seen hundreds/thousands of PLEX devs over my life.

 

Anyway, now that I know I can assign tuner devices in Emby I'll free up a full board (4 tuners/2 devices) in PLEX and move forward, hopefully later this week.  I really wish they'd offer a free trial but ...  

 

BTW, Elan offered me a refund but wanted to pro-rate it based on a year of use.  I told him it's never worked as advertised so how could he pro-rate it?  Never heard back ;)

You said, what I know. :)

Elan does quite a bit of this himself. Look at all the posts he silenced of mine back in December concerning the new UI. Then turns around and quotes my posts when they reversed decisions on the UI. Everything he disagreed we me for 2 years on, now fully agrees with me on the design and problems it caused. This was all pointed out to them during the design cycle of PMP2 (and other clients) way before regular users ever saw it. None of the active Ninjas like it, most still don't. LOL
 
I was one of the main DVR/Live TV testers early on as well.  Same thing. I pointed out the design flaws when it was still a prototype which is really what it still is IMHO. They were trying to play catch up to Emby to get DVR/TV out the door and were ok with only having basic functionality, working with a single device, only supporting a single EPG, etc.  Hasn't really improved to much in that sense.  But boy were they proud of having Gracenote EPG data integrated.  They thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread and would make setup so much easier then other DVRs.  Piff, it's got to work before that really matters.  LOL
 
I don't know how early you started using it but they went through I think 7 different formats trying to get a container/codec combination they could use with their devices.  I know at least 3 changes were released/seen publicly before they settled on TS.  The problem is that the devs working on that part of the code had never worked on TV or DVR before and really hadn't used them besides STBs.  
 
BTW, none of this is secret and I've posted the same info in the Plex forums. Not anything resembling a secret for anyone who visits their forums regularly.
 

Yes, you can actually restrict both Plex and Emby to certain devices (not specific tuners).  Just don't set them up. :)  So if you have two different devices you could setup one in Plex and other other in Emby.  You really need to do this for Plex as it doesn't want to "share" tuners with any other app.  Emby doesn't care.  With Emby if you happen to use LiveChannels, HDHomeRun, NextPVR, VLC or any other app that is using a tuner, Emby will just go past that tuner and find another free turner to use until they are all exhausted.  Plex won't do this.  If Plex sees a device as having 4 tuners (in your case), it expects all 4 tuners to always be available exclusively for it's own use.  Doesn't matter if it's a network device meant to be shared on not, Plex assumes it belongs to it.

 

So for testing purposes, running both servers definitely assign one to each and keep them separate otherwise Plex will choke.  But like nearly everyone else you'll quickly find out, Emby is much better and will switch all TV and DVR over to it. :)

 

BTW, you can setup a "Recording Library" or two (one movies, one Shows) in Plex pointed to the Emby recording folders and use Plex to playback Emby recorded video.  Plex can even playback recordings in progress this way.  Ironically, this works better in Plex for recordings in progress then using it's own DVR.

 

One other thing I'll mention.  If you look at the recording folders in Plex vs Emby you'll see that Emby records directly to a TS file that grows as the file is recorded.  With Plex it uses HLS segments which write tons of small TS files, then after recording is finished combines them back into one file.  Doing that is much harder on disc life and will wear out SSDs much faster due to the numerous writes.  So if using Plex for recording, don't setup an expensive SSD as the path for recording unless you want it to have a shorter life.  Use a "throw away cheap SSD" or normal HDD.  This doesn't apply to Emby.

 

So now that you know how to setup one device for each media server, grab yourself a month of Emby Premiere and get testing.  You'll quickly wish you did this sooner!



#13 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 07:16 AM

BTW, Elan offered me a refund but wanted to pro-rate it based on a year of use.  I told him it's never worked as advertised so how could he pro-rate it?  Never heard back ;)

Should have told him fine.  You planned on using the software for 50 years so feel free to deduct 1/50th of what I paid you.  LOL

 

You're going to like how well Emby does your recordings for you.  It very basic as far as options go for recording but it just plain works.


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#14 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 10:43 AM

Should have told him fine.  You planned on using the software for 50 years so feel free to deduct 1/50th of what I paid you.  LOL

 

You're going to like how well Emby does your recordings for you.  It very basic as far as options go for recording but it just plain works.

@cayars

 

I decided to just order another tuner card and set up a second server for the testing.  It arrives next week.  Now I'm waffling on buying a month pass or just jumping in with a lifetime :)

 

Does EMBY include complete guide data in their life pass?  Someone is telling me I'm going to have to purchase guide data on a monthly basis to get similar information included in PLEX.....



#15 mastrmind11 ONLINE  

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 10:53 AM

@cayars

 

I decided to just order another tuner card and set up a second server for the testing.  It arrives next week.  Now I'm waffling on buying a month pass or just jumping in with a lifetime :)

 

Does EMBY include complete guide data in their life pass?  Someone is telling me I'm going to have to purchase guide data on a monthly basis to get similar information included in PLEX.....

guide data is now included w/ premiere.



#16 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 11:51 AM

@cayars

 

I decided to just order another tuner card and set up a second server for the testing.  It arrives next week.  Now I'm waffling on buying a month pass or just jumping in with a lifetime :)

 

Does EMBY include complete guide data in their life pass?  Someone is telling me I'm going to have to purchase guide data on a monthly basis to get similar information included in PLEX.....

As @mastermind11 said it's built in so no additional costs. Doesn't matter if you have monthly, yearly or lifetime Premiere.

 

If you're unsure just get the $5 monthly and test it for 30 days before jumping on the Lifetime license.

 

Question:

You ordered another card?  In post 1 you said "I currently have 2 Hauppauge Quad PCI cards".  Did you order another of the same card or by chance did you order an HDHomeRun Quatro?

 

HDHomeRun tuners just flat out work perfectly with Emby with no issues/problems ever (my experience).  Hauppauge cards have issues with Emby presently due to the implementation which requires the Hauppauge software installed (not reliable).  If you still have the option cancel the Hauppauge card order and get a HDHomeRun Quatro instead. OR

 

Setup Next PVR (or Media Portal) just to manage the Hauppauge tuners (instead of using Hauppauge software).  You can either use the appropriate plugin or you can export the channel list as IPTV, import this into Emby and use the cards as IPTV sources (via NPVR or MP).  If you go the first route the EPG needs setting up outside of Emby, going the latter way allows you to still use Emby's EPG source (no additional cost).  This is only a slightly more complex setup (few additional minutes) but just works!  I or others can help you do this if needed but is pretty easy.



#17 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 06:03 PM

Uggggh, I wish I had known about the issues with Hauppauge cards earlier.  That's why I detailed my equipment in my first post :(

 

I ordered another 1609 quad PCI and it's sitting in the local facility already awaiting its truck roll on Monday.  I really don't want to go trough all the NextPVR stuff.  I played around with NextPVR before PLEX had LiveTV.

 

Is there a thread specifically on the Quad PCI Hauppauge issues????  This is the first I've heard of problems.

As @mastermind11 said it's built in so no additional costs. Doesn't matter if you have monthly, yearly or lifetime Premiere.

 

If you're unsure just get the $5 monthly and test it for 30 days before jumping on the Lifetime license.

 

Question:

You ordered another card?  In post 1 you said "I currently have 2 Hauppauge Quad PCI cards".  Did you order another of the same card or by chance did you order an HDHomeRun Quatro?

 

HDHomeRun tuners just flat out work perfectly with Emby with no issues/problems ever (my experience).  Hauppauge cards have issues with Emby presently due to the implementation which requires the Hauppauge software installed (not reliable).  If you still have the option cancel the Hauppauge card order and get a HDHomeRun Quatro instead. OR

 

Setup Next PVR (or Media Portal) just to manage the Hauppauge tuners (instead of using Hauppauge software).  You can either use the appropriate plugin or you can export the channel list as IPTV, import this into Emby and use the cards as IPTV sources (via NPVR or MP).  If you go the first route the EPG needs setting up outside of Emby, going the latter way allows you to still use Emby's EPG source (no additional cost).  This is only a slightly more complex setup (few additional minutes) but just works!  I or others can help you do this if needed but is pretty easy.



#18 cayars OFFLINE  

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 09:45 AM

Uggggh, I wish I had known about the issues with Hauppauge cards earlier.  That's why I detailed my equipment in my first post :(

But you already had that equipment and said nothing of ordering new stuff. :)

I ordered another 1609 quad PCI and it's sitting in the local facility already awaiting its truck roll on Monday.  I really don't want to go trough all the NextPVR stuff.  I played around with NextPVR before PLEX had LiveTV.
 
Is there a thread specifically on the Quad PCI Hauppauge issues????  This is the first I've heard of problems.

The Next PVR install doesn't need to be hard. 

Essentially:

Install NPVR on server and turn on client functionality.

Find and Scan Hauppauge card(s), No EPG or other setup.

 

That's pretty easy without a lot of time or effort.  Then all you do is hit up the Next PVR web port to export a channel list, make an adjustment to this file and then use it like any other IPTV source.

Time to this point 10 to 15 minutes (give or take).

 

Now it's just Emby setup as usual.

 

This allows NPVR to do the actual tuning vs the Hauppauge software and it's pretty rock solid.  Emby then does all the recording, EPG and everything else.

Next PVR used this way is set, then forget. :)

 

Don't sweat it.  When you stuff comes in shoot me a PM or post here and we can help you.  I'll help you via TeamViewer if you like as it's only a few minutes work and pretty easy.

 

You can of course try and use the Hauppauge cards directly via Emby as well.  Maybe you won't hit the same issues as some other users have.



#19 rakstr OFFLINE  

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 10:56 AM

Are the Hauppauge tuners now natively supported?  I've read some things that suggest they are.  Specifically interested in the Quad-PCI



#20 Luke OFFLINE  

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:19 AM

On Windows yes.


  • rakstr likes this





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