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Growing pains in 4K. Apple TV 4K HDR not playing back in only Emby?


gleep52
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sfatula

RanmaCanada - are you an official Emby personnel? or just a user with a passion for hating Apple?

Also known as a troll. I see no reason for some non useful opinionated posts in an Apple Tv forum. Do you want people posting Android hate in the Android forums? Just a waste of time and space. Those arguments are endless.

 

Surely comments such as these are not want you want on the forums?

 

"You also have to remember that Apple is for idiots"

Edited by sfatula
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Hitsville

Wow. This is the first Plex forum type thread I have seen here. 

So here's my thoughts on any shortcomings of the AppleTV 4K.

I have no love for Apple whatsoever. I owned an iPad 2 once and was pretty underwhelmed. However after various issues with the Shield in my Plex days and the laughably bad PMP on my HTPC, I took a punt on an the AppleTV 4K.

So, and this is with Plex.. a 4K HDR MKV remux will direct stream perfectly fine even with subtitles.

 

1. The subs need to be text based such as .srt

2. The mkv container will mux  to .mp4 in Plex whilst barely touching the CPU....We are talking about 2% maximum. Again the video itself is untouched. 

 

That said the downsides are Apples original failure to allow HD audio passthru and more recently removing/breaking  passthru totally. Whether that will change now Atmos is a thing for preferred apps is a different matter. 

The upside is the picture quality.....it makes the Shield look like a VERY bad joke. 

The only picture comparable to the Apple TV is by running a dedicated HTPC. It certainly is definitely not a Shield.   

But coming back to the Audio that's a pretty major downside. Certainly not something I can get past with an Atmos capable receiver. 

 

And please let me reiterate again.... all the above applies only to my comparisons whilst using Plex.

They aren't comparisons that I really need to test out in Emby cos Im all aboard Emby Theatre on my HTPC and life is good. 

 

So whilst I think comments like "Apple is for idiots" is pretty idiotic in itself, I will agree that some of their decision making definitely leaves a lot to be desired and holds their devices back for no apparent reason.

In a way though, I'm kind of glad about that last part, because the Plex Apple TV app is the most beautiful media playback client UI/UX I have ever seen or used and the only Plex client that doesn't look like total garbage. So had it not been for the Audio shortcomings I would probably still be using Plex even despite all the other things I detest about Plex... The forums, the attitudes of both users and staff, the daft decisions that Plex.inc make week in, week out and the list goes on and on. 

 

So indirectly those Apple failings led me back to Emby and I really couldn't be happier.  :)

Edited by Hitsville
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Hitsville

Well to be honest, I haven't even tried the Emby app on my Apple TV because of the Audio shortcomings.

But with regards to the app on Plex I guess it's just a personal preference of a UI. 
For example I'm probably the one person in the world who really hates Kodi skins. At best i find some skin's are tolerable but no more than that.

I know MrMC was mentioned in the thread and I do also like their Ariana skin. The rest are again abysmal. 

But again Apple's Audio policies make it a no go for me and I just find the Shield (with HDR especially) nowhere close to the Apple or my HTPC.
The other thing with the Apple on Plex is it's now apparently the only device where you can still select by server rather than media type.

I certainly didn't mean to imply anything negative.
Up next, recently added are great and where I do a lot of navigation from as was the case with Plex. But Embys"favourites" is kick-ass and despite it's apparent simplicity a real time saver for me.

Like I said there's no way back to Plex for me now. That UI, I love will be replaced with something that will not allow to view by server, to bring it in line with the other awful apps.

I'm just fine with Emby Theatre on Windows on my dedicated HTPC. Unless of course you decide to give us an embedded version of ET.
I would be on that in a heartbeat. [emoji3]

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Edited by Hitsville
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Are you saying that the graphic value of movie playback is higher quality with AppleTV4K than on a Shield TV?  Or just the plex interface and such?  As I understand it, the AppleTV4K (ATV4K) does HDR for all their menus and such too, making it look gorgeous.  ShieldTV however, only enables HDR when playback starts.  My projector only does HDR 10, not dolbyvision, so perhaps that makes a discernible difference?  I'm a graphic nutjob and audiophile, so I resorted to a Shield TV because I absolutely hate the audio/subtitle problems that Apple brings to the table.  I still have a non-4K version and a ATV3 even, but quality of playback to me looks better on the Shield when HDR is enabled, and for films without HDR, I still think the Shield looks on par with ATV4K.  The menu and UI of ATV4K with HDR on looks amazing, but when you're talking video to video comparison between Shield and ATV4K - I don't see any difference.  

 

I think ultimately what made me jump to the Shield as the last straw is the interface of all (or at least most) the Apple TV apps.  While they might be more flashy or perhaps polished, they all use that stupid press UP to bring up the subtitles and audio tracks menu, and it was a lot of stop playback, change this, go back in, etc.  With Emby on my Shield I can select the subtitle I want, not be forced to use whatever "subtitles on" means to Apple.  There's a such thing as TOO simple - every company should avoid that.  Apple rides that line all the time, and it really holds them back. 

 

The only problem I've run into with Emby on Shield is collections not working 100% of the time.  Like if I select Jurassic Park, and scroll down to see the rest of the JP films, I only get a few of the five in that list... and shows other movies that some of the characters have been in too.  With Plex, it only shows the other JP films, but they are ALL in there.  

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Hitsville

Are you saying that the graphic value of movie playback is higher quality with AppleTV4K than on a Shield TV?  Or just the plex interface and such?  As I understand it, the AppleTV4K (ATV4K) does HDR for all their menus and such too, making it look gorgeous.  ShieldTV however, only enables HDR when playback starts.  My projector only does HDR 10, not dolbyvision, so perhaps that makes a discernible difference?  I'm a graphic nutjob and audiophile, so I resorted to a Shield TV because I absolutely hate the audio/subtitle problems that Apple brings to the table.  I still have a non-4K version and a ATV3 even, but quality of playback to me looks better on the Shield when HDR is enabled, and for films without HDR, I still think the Shield looks on par with ATV4K.  The menu and UI of ATV4K with HDR on looks amazing, but when you're talking video to video comparison between Shield and ATV4K - I don't see any difference.  

 

 

 

 

 

To the first part at least with my eyes with I really do see a discernible difference. That said with my previous Samsung TV not so much so, but with my new LG OLED, I really would describe it as night and day. Sadly I have no DV files so just standard HDR10.

Personally I never set the Apple TV to HDR. I just have it set for SDR and let it do its job when it receives an HDR signal. 

For me subtitles and audio aren't an issue. I only need forced/foreign parts subs and I let Emby deal with that...and like I said Audio is a non event with Apple.

 

There is no doubting that the Apples weakness with Audio is the Shields strongest asset. But like you I only deal in high bitrates for audio and video. So for me both have their strengths and weaknesses. But the Shields weakness isn't deal breaking for me unlike the Apple TV.

 

But I'm fortunate enough to do lots of PC building as a hobby and for friends. So I got a HTPC case and built my own. I find the picture in ET running on Windows on a par with the Apple TV and obviously has no audio limitations either, so along with my Harmony remote, I found my sweet spot.

I will say however that isn't 100% totally perfect, but that's just because of the Windows always on or always off method of dealing with HDR. A small price to pay for otherwise perfection. At least to me.  :)

 

But just to make it clear again, I'm far from an Apple fanboy. Without doubt for anyone wanting a one box hassle free solution such as the Shield or Apple TV, I would (and often have) always recommend to go for the Shield.

Edited by Hitsville
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I haven't ever tried Emby Theater - I've always just used a web browser to playback... WOW is that fast.  And really pretty.  Jurassic Park Fallen Kingdom looks amazing on my laptop - seemingly a different movie when watched from my browser.  It's a shame a HTPC costs so much to leave on all the time.  I've already got three servers that are on all the time.  I used to be a die hard HTPC guy - but the complexity of remote control and how every service requires it's own app now really make me turned off to it anymore.  Windows Media Center used to have it all tied in back in the windows 7 days.  Plugins to netflix anyway.  That was before our Hulu and Amazon Prime days.  And BYUTV as well now.  PM me and tell me about your setup - maybe I can multitask one of my VR workstations as a HTPC maybe... What do you use for your remote control interface?  What do you use to playback Amazon Prime Video (or don't you?)?  I see even byutv has an app in the windows 10 store now.  But I don't see one for Prime Video.  

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@@RanmaCanada please refrain from calling people names on these forums.

 

Apple designs some beautiful interfaces and works very well within their ecosystem.  What you have to realize, however, is that Apple is really only concerned with your ability to play content from their ecosystem.  So, trying to use a device like an Apple TV to play BluRay rips with DTS-HD sound is going to be a tough nut because that simply doesn't match anything that Apple delivers within their systems so they aren't going to look to support them.

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sfatula

Apple designs some beautiful interfaces and works very well within their ecosystem.  What you have to realize, however, is that Apple is really only concerned with your ability to play content from their ecosystem.  So, trying to use a device like an Apple TV to play BluRay rips with DTS-HD sound is going to be a tough nut because that simply doesn't match anything that Apple delivers within their systems so they aren't going to look to support them.

 

 

Exactly, Apple TV is designed to be a streaming media player. Dolby Atmos et al work fine for Netflix, Vudu, iTunes, etc. Nothing stops one from creating their own player, which is what Emby is essentially doing, leveraging an existing third party player to provide additional functionality. This is what others do as well. Everyone has their own use for a given product. 

 

Playing ripped (often pirated) content is not what they are designing for. Media centers that want full functionality and control on a given platform have to decide is they want to use API only, or, other tools. VLC exists for this reason on numerous platforms. If all those players on all those platforms were so great, there wouldn't be a VLC, MrMC, etc. Roku, one of the oldest players, still doesn't even let you play mpeg2 content and requires external transcoding. Other players have their own set of issues. Once Emby gets their new player out, ripped content will undoubtedly work much much better. Emby is merely adapting the product for a different purpose. Which I for one appreciate very much! About to get lifetime Premiere since I did a one month to try it out and quite satisfied. All my recordings play just fine even on the existing ATV client, except 3D. 

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Roku, one of the oldest players, still doesn't even let you play mpeg2 content and requires external transcoding.

 

Actually, this has changed. Depending on your model of Roku, and its accompanying firmware. h261(mpeg1), h262(mpeg2), h263(xvid/divx/dx50), h264(avc/mpeg4), h265(hevc) all will direct play or the very least remux/directstream on certain roku devices. The transcoding has gone down considerably now. The newest Emby Roku Beta app has all of this right now. We are moving forward to change this perception that the Roku isn't capable. The Roku is becoming a very capable device, and this opening up of codecs puts it in serious competition with AppleTV.

Edited by speechles
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sfatula

Actually, this has changed. Depending on your model of Roku, and its accompanying firmware. h261(mpeg1), h262(mpeg2), h263(xvid/divx/dx50), h264(avc/mpeg4), h265(hevc) all will direct play or the very least remux/directstream on certain roku devices. The transcoding has gone down considerably now. The newest Emby Roku Beta app has all of this right now. We are moving forward to change this perception that the Roku isn't capable. The Roku is becoming a very capable device, and this opening up of codecs puts it in serious competition with AppleTV.

Fully aware of this, but not mine. Of course, roku TV can also, else, it wouldn't exist! We like our Roku too. But codecs are a moving target too.

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Fully aware of this, but not mine. Of course, roku TV can also, else, it wouldn't exist! We like our Roku too. But codecs are a moving target too.

 

new codecs are the future and can't be known. So any competition starts on even ground when we get there. We all are blind.

 

But for any existing that you fail to adapt to, the world is your oyster. This advantage is huge. Now I leak this and the other guys just go too. But this helps everyone, it is unfair to keep this knowledge just to myself and not enlighten all. The actual profiles, playback mechanisms, fallback routines.. these are all proprietary/copyrighted things. But the knowledge that a Roku can do things it never could before gives me hope that Roku might allow us to pass-through HD Audio eventually. So far, no, but I do have code in the app to immediately uncomment and gain this ability once it does. There are several areas built like this to give us a leg up if things change.

 

Back on topic, AppleTV stuff.. The two companies have different agendas and do the opposite, Roku opens doors on their platform even more, Apple closes more doors to innovation. They want to be the innovators on their platform. Not third parties. This is the real reason. They run a movie store that makes them gazillions. Roku just has some advertising it may throw your way when you watch their hosted stream to get their dollars. The margins different. Apple takes a greedy share of developers profits. The fact they still retain such a high moniker of trust with such a poor business model has everything to do with their product. Create something beautiful that anyone would be proud to own and use. Now lock that product down, and sell everything that can be used on it with a 33% markup. Apple is sort of back handing developers while spooning food into their mouths.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I love Apple devices. So elegant, the software is beautiful. The UI gorgeous. Things you wish you could get anywhere else. Then they cripple it, and limit the potential and innovations possible. My mother had to have an ipad for one particular application that works with her Cricut scrapbooking software. Its only on iTunes. Only for iPad. It is the most beautiful tablet I have ever used. Too bad its required for her to use her Cricut, have fun with her hobby and get full use of that Cricut, and nothing else will do. Its got a single home button, no back or recent button. I get lost using it since the UI confuses me. I am used to android/PC.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-apples-products-so-confusing-ignore-design-don-norman

 

This post makes a good point. Beauty at the expense of usability. That is 100% Apple.

Edited by speechles
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sfatula

new codecs are the future and can't be known. So any competition starts on even ground when we get there. We all are blind.

 

But for any existing that you fail to adapt to, the world is your oyster. This advantage is huge. Now I leak this and the other guys just go too. But this helps everyone, it is unfair to keep this knowledge just to myself and not enlighten all. The actual profiles, playback mechanisms, fallback routines.. these are all proprietary/copyrighted things. But the knowledge that a Roku can do things it never could before gives me hope that Roku might allow us to pass-through HD Audio eventually. So far, no, but I do have code in the app to immediately uncomment and gain this ability once it does. There are several areas built like this to give us a leg up if things change.

 

Back on topic, AppleTV stuff.. The two companies have different agendas and do the opposite, Roku opens doors on their platform even more, Apple closes more doors to innovation. They want to be the innovators on their platform. Not third parties. This is the real reason. They run a movie store that makes them gazillions. Roku just has some advertising it may throw your way when you watch their hosted stream to get their dollars. The margins different. Apple takes a greedy share of developers profits. The fact they still retain such a high moniker of trust with such a poor business model has everything to do with their product. Create something beautiful that anyone would be proud to own and use. Now lock that product down, and sell everything that can be used on it with a 33% markup. Apple is sort of back handing developers while spooning food into their mouths.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I love Apple devices. So elegant, the software is beautiful. The UI gorgeous. Things you wish you could get anywhere else. Then they cripple it, and limit the potential and innovations possible. My mother had to have an ipad for one particular application that works with her Cricut scrapbooking software. Its only on iTunes. Only for iPad. It is the most beautiful tablet I have ever used. Too bad its required for her to use her Cricut, have fun with her hobby and get full use of that Cricut, and nothing else will do. Its got a single home button, no back or recent button. I get lost using it since the UI confuses me. I am used to android/PC.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-apples-products-so-confusing-ignore-design-don-norman

 

This post makes a good point. Beauty at the expense of usability. That is 100% Apple.

 

 

Ymmv, platform wars is not a good topic for any forum, too emotional. I am glad you like your platform, I do not. I use an iPad for business, coding, MySQL admin, Server admin, you name it. Not a problem. Does everything I need it to do, gave up laptops years ago. But again, YMMV. We all have different uses. Definitely what we are used to has a big bearing on what we like. So, I disagree with beauty at the expense of usability. But then again, my needs are likely different than yours. 

 

Rokus biggest problem is Brightscript. But people have learned to use it in amazing ways too. 

 

Again, everything I own and have seems to work well on the existing Emby ATV client, other than 3D. The new Emby client will make this even better. Having owned Roku, Android TV, Apple TV, I chose Apple TV to keep, Android to eliminate, and, Roku to keep for the wife. It's nice having 2 different platforms in some ways. But I get a lot of integration with the ATVs too. 

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Ymmv, platform wars is not a good topic for any forum, too emotional. I am glad you like your platform, I do not. I use an iPad for business, coding, MySQL admin, Server admin, you name it. Not a problem. Does everything I need it to do, gave up laptops years ago. But again, YMMV. We all have different uses. Definitely what we are used to has a big bearing on what we like. So, I disagree with beauty at the expense of usability. But then again, my needs are likely different than yours. 

 

Rokus biggest problem is Brightscript. But people have learned to use it in amazing ways too. 

 

Again, everything I own and have seems to work well on the existing Emby ATV client, other than 3D. The new Emby client will make this even better. Having owned Roku, Android TV, Apple TV, I chose Apple TV to keep, Android to eliminate, and, Roku to keep for the wife. It's nice having 2 different platforms in some ways. But I get a lot of integration with the ATVs too. 

 

Im not banging my own drum quite the contrary. Emotional is what draws brand awareness. You use it you love it. I've hardly used Apple. Mostly because cost, it just costs more to do things using their ecosystem. Now I am not saying piracy, just things in general have a premium price there. Simple FTP programs, that are free on Android, are paid apps on Apple. Lots of apps the same way. Same developer on Android free. Apple they charge. How odd. Now the fact you can use an iPad for all those things shows how much I know. The screen is too small for me when I code. I like side by side screens, and that would mean two iPads and.. you get where I am going.

 

Roku's biggest problem is indeed the language. OMG.. it's not hard to learn, but it means you have to port everything to it, and work out the bugs. Nothing is just drop in, and add a few paramters, link libraries and done. Nope. Roku makes you earn what you can present to the world. I agree there its a harder road to get productive on Roku than the tools Apple gives you to start.

 

The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you, might not be right for some. It takes different strokes for different folks. I completely understand. I was just making a poignant statement perhaps in the wrong place. I do apologize.. *moves along* .... lol

Edited by speechles
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sfatula

Im not banging my own drum quite the contrary. Emotional is what draws brand awareness. You use it you love it. I've hardly used Apple. Mostly because cost, it just costs more to do things using their ecosystem. Now I am not saying piracy, just things in general have a premium price there. Simple FTP programs, that are free on Android, are paid apps on Apple. Now the fact you can use an iPad for all those things shows how much I know, the screen is too small for me when I code. I like side by side screens, and that would mean two iPads and.. you get where I am going.

 

Roku's biggest problem is indeed the language. OMG.. it's not hard to learn, but it means you have to port everything to it, and work out the bugs. Nothing is just drop in, and add a few paramters, link libraries and done. Nope. Roku makes you earn what you can present to the world. I agree there its a harder road than just using swift. You have me there.

 

The world doesn't move to the beat of just one drum, that might be right for, might not be right for some. It takes different strokes for different folks. I completely undertand. I was just making a poignant statement perhaps in the wrong place. I do apologize.. *moves along* .... lol

 

 

That's why I have a 12.9" Pro, can do side by side just fine. Eyesight is good, no problem for me. Apple is indeed more expensive, sort of. I always buy used on swappa, mint condition only. And, I sell a year or 2 later for almost what I paid for it, so, depends how you buy I guess. The only relative I have with an Android phone gets close to $0 for her used phones, so, in some respects, it's actually not that different in price. Depends on the brand. I don't do carrier deals, those are the worst!

 

No, I don't want to say any platform is bad or worse, they all have their uses. I am sure Android works well for her, it obviously does for many. Same for Roku, or any other platform, Roku has some advantages of its own. Raspberry Pi has some 3D advantages, etc. I am always glad when there are many choices, like Amazon even. I would never want one company to control it all. That is bad for everyone. 

 

I just look forward to the new ATV client! Maybe 3D will work (and least HTAB)

Edited by sfatula
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raven-au

What about their apple tv app do you think looks better than ours? 

 

I looked at Emby tvOS again just recently.

I saw that some annoying long standing display problems appeared to be resolved, it looked quite good to me and I also use the tvOS plex app.

 

The thing that prevents me from going further with Emby tvOS is the HDR play back so I haven't actually spent much time with the app.

 

I have had lots of difficulties with audio limitations on devices that I'm in a position to use, eg. recent Intel NUC HD audio pass-thru not working for a long, long time.

I've pretty much given up on caring too much about HD audio although InFuse on Apple TV will decode HD audio to LPCM 7.1 which is essentially HD audio, except for DTS:X and Atmos (the later will probably come to InFuse given the recent tvOS update).

 

I'm not an idiot for wanting to use the ATV 4K, it is IMHO not a bad device considering the difficulties I have had with devices over the last several years!

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