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ggservers
Posted

Hey there,

 

Would really love to see a user signup option put into place. 

 

Not sure if this is already possible with plugins/api but it would be a nice feature and I personally know people it would benefit 

Posted (edited)

In order for anything like that, you'd be better off handling it yourself through a proxy to server and separate site signup.

Make a webpage and all that jazz.

 

Definitely use caution when creating such a thing.

Edited by chef
zigzagtshirt
Posted

As neat of a feature as it would be, I'd caution against it.

 

It would only be a matter of time before pirate sites start popping up using Emby to deliver the content.  I'm sure they already exist, but having a "user sign-up" module packaged with Emby would just make it a ton easier.

 

I'm all for automating things, but if you've got so many people using your server that you can't take a few moments to manually create credentials, I'm going to raise an eyebrow at what you're using Emby for.  

 

Then again, I can see legitimate uses for this.    

  • Like 2
Untoten
Posted

As neat of a feature as it would be, I'd caution against it.

 

It would only be a matter of time before pirate sites start popping up using Emby to deliver the content.  I'm sure they already exist, but having a "user sign-up" module packaged with Emby would just make it a ton easier.

 

I'm all for automating things, but if you've got so many people using your server that you can't take a few moments to manually create credentials, I'm going to raise an eyebrow at what you're using Emby for.  

 

Then again, I can see legitimate uses for this.    

But we have to assume as a community people are using it for legal purposes only, like torrent protocol.  I personally want signup so my guests can stop sharing their friggin credentials with people all the time and just possibly have an 'invite a friend feature' or something similar where I can give each user, on an individual basis, x invites.

Deathsquirrel
Posted

But we have to assume as a community people are using it for legal purposes only, like torrent protocol.  I personally want signup so my guests can stop sharing their friggin credentials with people all the time and just possibly have an 'invite a friend feature' or something similar where I can give each user, on an individual basis, x invites.

 

Why on earth would we assume that??

 

I don't see this fitting with what EBR has been saying lately about the project goals and licensing being focused on a home media server for a family or similar group.  If they want to do it, fine, but let's not pretend this scenario applies to a use that is remotely legal almost anywhere.  Of course we could claim we are allowing users to sign up to see our own content such as home movies.  I know random strangers LOVE to see my home movies and travel slides ;)

Untoten
Posted (edited)

Why on earth would we assume that??

 

I don't see this fitting with what EBR has been saying lately about the project goals and licensing being focused on a home media server for a family or similar group.  If they want to do it, fine, but let's not pretend this scenario applies to a use that is remotely legal almost anywhere.  Of course we could claim we are allowing users to sign up to see our own content such as home movies.  I know random strangers LOVE to see my home movies and travel slides ;)

Why the hell would you openly say, 'we assume people are using this for purely illegal purposes.'  Please, I would love to hear this.

 

That is like a headshop saying 'these no2 cans are for illegal consumption and the pipes are for use with illegal narcotics, it's madness and absolute nonsense.

Edited by Untoten
Deathsquirrel
Posted

Why the hell would you openly say, 'we assume people are using this for purely illegal purposes.'  Please, I would love to hear this.

 

That is like a headshop saying 'these no2 cans are for illegal consumption and the pipes are for use with illegal narcotics, it's madness and absolute nonsense.

 

I assume people would use THIS feature to facilitate access to content they have no right to distribute.  That assumption obviously doesn't apply to Emby as a whole. :)

Untoten
Posted (edited)

I assume people would use THIS feature to facilitate access to content they have no right to distribute.  That assumption obviously doesn't apply to Emby as a whole. :)

Having the ability to invite users to a service that is inherently legal, does not put them under suspicion of illegal use, that is a huge reaching leap of logic that would not withstand the slightest scrutiny.  Inviting more people to a legal service, does not then make the legal service and less legal.  

 

Again, Emby is a legal product, for legal uses.  There is no assumption users are doing otherwise until a person is person is justly tried and convicted for illegal use, which would also surely breach ToS and thus preclude them from the Emby community anyway.  Let's keep this discussion clean and concentrate on the feature, which is legal and not questionable inherently.

Edited by Untoten
Deathsquirrel
Posted

Having the ability to invite users to a service that is inherently legal, does not put them under suspicion of illegal use, that is a huge reaching leap of logic that would not withstand the slightest scrutiny.  Inviting more people to a legal service, does not then make the legal service and less legal.

 

Inviting users outside your home is going to be considered distribution in most regions.  Unlicensed distribution of copyrighted content is, broadly speaking, illegal to one degree or another pretty much everywhere with access to electricity.  That's not a moral judgement, just a statement of fact.

 

This feature is designed to facilitate granting access to your content to people outside your home.  As with all other feature requests that facilitate sharing content or playing pirated content, I don't think it's a good idea for it to be in the core product.

  • Like 3
Untoten
Posted (edited)

Inviting users outside your home is going to be considered distribution in most regions.  Unlicensed distribution of copyrighted content is, broadly speaking, illegal to one degree or another pretty much everywhere with access to electricity.  That's not a moral judgement, just a statement of fact.

 

This feature is designed to facilitate granting access to your content to people outside your home.  As with all other feature requests that facilitate sharing content or playing pirated content, I don't think it's a good idea for it to be in the core product.

Who said pirated or non open licensed content?  I want to invite users to see my free use license content, I think you are making many assumptions here.

 

For instance, I have a server with purely concert footage that have both consent of the promoter and the artist to distribute freely as i wish.  Assumptions do not help.

 

In fact, the case you described, even if only within your own home would be illegal, you cannot rip DVD, Bluray, etc even for personal use, this is well known (http://lifehacker.com/5978326/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-that-i-own).  And any legally downloaded content that you purchased would have DRM, which would likely not even work in Emby, so the premise is flawed.  Again, let us focus on the feature, if you wish to discuss semantics further, feel free to DM me.

Edited by Untoten
Posted (edited)

Who said pirated or non open licensed content? I want to invite users to see my free use license content, I think you are making many assumptions here.

 

For instance, I have a server with purely concert footage that have both consent of the promoter and the artist to distribute freely as i wish. Assumptions do not help.

 

In fact, the case you described, even if only within your own home would be illegal, you cannot rip DVD, Bluray, etc even for personal use, this is well known (http://lifehacker.com/5978326/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-that-i-own). And any legally downloaded content that you purchased would have DRM, which would likely not even work in Emby, so the premise is flawed. Again, let us focus on the feature, if you wish to discuss semantics further, feel free to DM me.

DeathSquirrel said it because that is that most likely use if the feature is implemented, your implied use if true would be in the extreme minority

Also the description of pirated material you described is not universally true, the specific definition varies country to country, but generally what DeathSquirrel said is correct

Edited by Vidman
Untoten
Posted

DeathSquirrel said it because that is that most likely use if the feature is implemented, your implied use if true would be in the extreme minority

Also the description of pirated material you described is not universally true, the specific definition varies country to country, but generally what DeathSquirrel said is correct

Again, that is assumption, as far as I know Emby does not track media types etc, so this is not proven, cannot be proven and is a dangerous assumption to make in regards to the general community.  The way I see it, nobody uses Emby outside the law and it would be best for the longevity of Emby as a product for you to assume innocence until proven guilty as well.

Posted (edited)

It is naive or ignorant to think having this feature would be used for sharing mostly non copyrighted content

If you provide an easy way to distribute media people will take advantage of it possibly to embys detriment, so I fail to see how that would be best for the longevity of emby.

Just look at the state of kodi for an example , it's brand is now synonymous with illegal streaming boxes and now the Kodi team has to try and distance itself from that but are still barraged with support requests asking why their streaming boxes have stopped allowing people to freely stream illegal content

Edited by Vidman
  • Like 1
lexisdude
Posted (edited)

I like the argument that is rolling here.

Assumption of usage is null and void when you are considering how an item will be used in the hands of consumers.

Pseudoephedrine is used in the manufacture of meth - and while it is being abused by some ; the majority of people wanting it are using it for its intended purposes. And is still sold

Guns can and are used to kill; and while crimes do occur involving guns - the vast majority of owners have and use them in a respectable manner.

If we go on an assumption of evil ; than everything - despite its usage could be considered evil. Bug killer is a dangerous weapon; spoons can kill people; caffeine should be considered a controlled substance because of its physiochemical effects on the body

Emby could have every element of a piece of software that facilitates itself for "pirates" even have the dreaded "torrent" capabilities - but still have absolutely no control over how or what content is placed on it by its users. The latter part of the statement is true right now; and has been since MB classic was first released. I understand from a design and dev point of view - keep EMBY so that it 'appears formal/proper' and for 'personal use' - but how will that ever safeguard anyone on the EMBY team how the users use it or what content is found on an emby server - or who and what is shared to people?

If I opened up my emby server; requiring no password to the content - this can be considered distribution just as quickly as requiring a password to the content - and if the content was copyrighted or there was illegal content on it - EMBY would be to blame? . The statement by Deathsquirrel  "
Inviting users outside your home is going to be considered distribution in most regions.  Unlicensed distribution of copyrighted content is, broadly speaking, illegal to one degree or another pretty much everywhere with access to electricity.  That's not a moral judgement, just a statement of fact" is irrelevant as EMBY provides this capability if I were to broadcast my IP to the masses.

Assuming that the majority of people using EMBY are using it as it is intended - having a signup/logon page is a great idea. Perhaps there are those out there that want to use Emby as a business host ; rather than a simple personal media center. Or want to provide video vault like capabilities to it's users. The possibilities are endless here - all of which do not immediately make the usage proprietary to "pirates". 

If we use the "Kodi Boxes"  as a reference to illegal streams - and then compare EMBY to this in any way - then the devs might as well hang up their coats. These boxes were pre-programmed with illegal content; and were most likely purchased knowingly by people for this capability. This is a clear example of misuse of the Kodi software; and Kodi had nothing to do with it nor can Kodi be personally held responsible for it. Kodi itself can still be facilitated this way - despite whether the illegal boxes are being sold or not. Not because Kodi intended it to be used in this way; but because end users decided to use it for illegal purposes. How is anyone on the EMBY team going to suggest or declare that the EMBY software will not be used for or capable of illegal streams?

This is the same thing as assuming everyone that uses torrent is a pirate; even though torrent is merely a transport protocol and is used in all sorts of business scale technology - the word itself has been made synonymous to pirating.

SMH

Edited by lexisdude
  • Like 3
Untoten
Posted (edited)

@@lexisdude finally some common sense, thank you.  I feel like I was talking to a wall, these same people would also push to have bitorrent, or the internet as a whole banished from existence, because SOMEONE MIGHT use it illegally.  Complete nonsense.

It is sad that even the old men that legislate understand this but these users cannot.  We should probably ban cars too /s

I guess Microsoft should remove the feature to invite families to your pc because afterall, most pirating occurs on windows.  We should ban encryption too, because terrorists MIGHT use it. lul

Edited by Untoten
  • Like 1
Jdiesel
Posted (edited)

IMO it whether or not a feature has legitimate or illegal uses shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether it should be added. However every feature that is added that increases the likelihood or ease at which one can profit off of piracy increases Embys profile on the studios, media providers, and their lawyers radars. If history has shown us any thing as a software company you do not want to be on their radar even if you believe you are operating under the law as they have the potential to destroy a company with legal defense costs.

 

So every time you add a feature like payment tools, bulk user tools, business licensing, self created user accounts, and or any other feature that attracts those operating services that sell copyrighted material you increase you increase Embys profile. I personally don't like to see developer resources on features that cater to these users. Plex has taken a hard stance on theses types of users and deletes the account of anyone found selling copyrighted material thus the influx of user moving to Emby who at the time are turning a blind eye to it.

 

Everyone has different opinions on piracy. Some may download digital copies of physical media they already own so they don't have to rip it them selves, or to get tv shows they may have missed on their cable provider, media that isn't available in there region, or maybe they just can't afford it. Where I draw the line, I think others may also, is when you sell copyrighted material to others. This is not right IMO and will always be against it or anything that promotes whether or not it could also have legitimate uses.

Edited by Jdiesel
  • Like 1
lexisdude
Posted (edited)

IMO it whether or not a feature has legitimate or illegal uses shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether it should be added. However every feature that is added that increases the likelihood or ease at which one can profit off of piracy increases Embys profile on the studios, media providers, and their lawyers radars. If history has shown us any thing as a software company you do not want to be on their radar even if you believe you are operating under the law as they have the potential to destroy a company with legal defense costs.

 

So every time you add a feature like payment tools, bulk user tools, business licensing, self created user accounts, and or any other feature that attracts those operating services that sell copyrighted material you increase you increase Embys profile. I personally don't like to see developer resources on features that cater to these users. Plex has taken a hard stance on theses types of users and deletes the account of anyone found selling copyrighted material thus the influx of user moving to Emby who at the time are turning a blind eye to it.

 

Everyone has different opinions on piracy. Some may download digital copies of physical media they already own so they don't have to rip it them selves, or to get tv shows they may have missed on their cable provider, media that isn't available in there region, or maybe they just can't afford it. Where I draw the line, I think others may also, is when you sell copyrighted material to others. This is not right IMO and will always be against it or anything that promotes whether or not it could also have legitimate uses.

 

I understand this view; from a dev/design reference - however... One cannot control the illegal activity of another - period. If it is assumed the bad is going to happen on a design and development level - the entire platform will eventually fall through as it's built while hiding under a rock instead of building with creativity flexibility and promise. There is not one piece of software out there - that cannot be exploited and/or used for illegal purposes. Those days ended with the advent of the personal computer. Trying to make sure that doesn't happen is honorable; making sure that doesn't happen means we might as well go back to cartridges as software - and even they were exploited back in the day. It simply does not make any sense why any developer would not see this as reality. That would be no different than suggesting Smith & Wesson is responsible for all the violence in the world and why guns should be illegal.

 

Furthermore - why wouldn't EMBY want to gravitate towards a PRO or a Business class piece of software? Its an awesome personal media center - but it could be so much more. In order for it to be more though would require the implementations of all those types of items you mentioned - however; any web server can do it already so I just don't understand where the fear is from.

Edited by lexisdude
mastrmind11
Posted

I understand this view; from a dev/design reference - however... One cannot control the illegal activity of another - period. If it is assumed the bad is going to happen on a design and development level - the entire platform will eventually fall through as it's built while hiding under a rock instead of building with creativity flexibility and promise. There is not one piece of software out there - that cannot be exploited and/or used for illegal purposes. Those days ended with the advent of the personal computer. Trying to make sure that doesn't happen is honorable; making sure that doesn't happen means we might as well go back to cartridges as software - and even they were exploited back in the day. It simply does not make any sense why any developer would not see this as reality. That would be no different than suggesting Smith & Wesson is responsible for all the violence in the world and why guns should be illegal.

 

Furthermore - why wouldn't EMBY want to gravitate towards a PRO or a Business class piece of software? Its an awesome personal media center - but it could be so much more. In order for it to be more though would require the implementations of all those types of items you mentioned - however; any web server can do it already so I just don't understand where the fear is from.

The fear is from the uneducated pencil pushers that pass bills and make laws collective perception that if it has the potential to be used maliciously then it is being used maliciously and must be stopped at all cost for the greater good.  Look at what's happening with the hobby drone industry as an example....  within a year of the hobby garnering mass adoption, the federal government (here and other countries) decided they could potentially be used to blow shit up, and BAM... regulations out the ass.  While something like a media server isn't going to blow people up or crash into commercial jets, the perception is that they could be used to "pirate" much like "drones" can be used to drop grenades  Why even get on the radar?  It's pointless, and tbh, there are plenty of ways to create a signup screen on your own with a few hours of online web design courses and a domain name..

  • Like 1
lexisdude
Posted (edited)

The fear is from the uneducated pencil pushers that pass bills and make laws collective perception that if it has the potential to be used maliciously then it is being used maliciously and must be stopped at all cost for the greater good.  Look at what's happening with the hobby drone industry as an example....  within a year of the hobby garnering mass adoption, the federal government (here and other countries) decided they could potentially be used to blow shit up, and BAM... regulations out the ass.  While something like a media server isn't going to blow people up or crash into commercial jets, the perception is that they could be used to "pirate" much like "drones" can be used to drop grenades  Why even get on the radar?  It's pointless, and tbh, there are plenty of ways to create a signup screen on your own with a few hours of online web design courses and a domain name..

I agree with you. But this whole propagation of fear and name calling rhetoric should not by any means be the one which surfaces as the winner. Hiding under an umbrella while the bombs drop thinking its going to protect isn't going to save anyone from anything - it only adds to the ever growing insanity that makes people think they're safe from the disaster that's already knocking on their door. Most cable providers or content distributors would automatically assume EMBY is in fact a platform for pirated content - simply of what it does and that it exists. You cannot reason with them; or even give them ample enough evidence which shows the contrary.

 

I also agree - that if your goal is to become a large host of content; a web server is the way to go regardless. But not everyone is seeking such things. Here - a request to have a user signup / login page was the request. Not all the other bells and whistles which could compromise EMBY or its devs as soliciting and condoning illegal content distribution. And honestly I have a very hard time making even the vaguest connection to such a request without quite a few other modifications to EMBY also in place.

Edited by lexisdude
  • Like 2
Deathsquirrel
Posted (edited)

As with other feature requests that appear tailored to needs of people working with pirated media, I suggest that supporters post some use cases.  @@Untoten did so and that's the kind of thing that might get a listen.  Instead of arguing about how it's just not the dev's business that the way someone is using the product is illegal pretty much everywhere, and that they shouldn't worry about getting shut down due to their foolish decision to knowingly support such use, give them a compelling, legitimate argument for adding the feature.

 

Either that or you can have 45 pages of asking for support of a feature you'll never get, like the guys asking for playback of split-rar media files.

Edited by Deathsquirrel
lexisdude
Posted (edited)

@@lexisdude finally some common sense, thank you.  I feel like I was talking to a wall, these same people would also push to have bitorrent, or the internet as a whole banished from existence, because SOMEONE MIGHT use it illegally.  Complete nonsense.

 

It is sad that even the old men that legislate understand this but these users cannot.  We should probably ban cars too /s

 

I guess Microsoft should remove the feature to invite families to your pc because afterall, most pirating occurs on windows.  We should ban encryption too, because terrorists MIGHT use it. lul

I think that it's more of a fear of what the end users will do and then "EMBY" becoming another term for pirating when someone gets caught. These same kind of fears are what have been holding back developers - when in truth; developers are not personally responsible for how their software is used unless of course it was developed to in fact do something illegal. 

 

I lol'ed at your Microsoft comment; because the biggest pirating rings that can be found out there are inter-family .. However most software houses and content providers 'allow' for that kind of usage because its not considered distribution. With all the craze and lawsuits - even that might change in time.

 

Edited by lexisdude
Posted

 

 

developers are not personally responsible for how their software is used. 

 

Each app store makes their own rules. In addition, they've pretty much all demonstrated they're going to enforce their own rules inconsistently. So now that means perception is just as important as reality. If the right person reviewing your app get the wrong impression, you could be in for some very bad news. What they think is every bit as important as whatever might technically be true. For pretty much any software developer nowadays, if your app gets removed from the store, you're going to have a hard time surviving.

  • Like 1
lexisdude
Posted (edited)

Each app store makes their own rules. In addition, they've pretty much all demonstrated they're going to enforce their own rules inconsistently. So now that means perception is just as important as reality. If the right person reviewing your app get the wrong impression, you could be in for some very bad news. What they think is every bit as important as whatever might technically be true. For pretty much any software developer nowadays, if your app gets removed from the store, you're going to have a hard time surviving.

 

That is true. But still - having options on a server does not make the server automatically in focus of supporting illegal items; the end user is what determines the usage and its content, not the developer. With Emby being open source; it faces the same potential for abuses as Kodi. But Kodi had and still has a great impression with its users. Most people that cannot distinguish the differences between the illegal kodi boxes and kodi itself will never touch the software to begin with. Just as most people that would label EMBY as just another front end that houses illegal content will never know what it really is or how its avid supporters use it.. That is; until someone gets caught doing something illegal - that should be the realization; not the potential of what it could be used for. Anything has the potential of being abused.

Edited by lexisdude
Posted

That is true. But still - having options on a server does not make the server automatically in focus of supporting illegal items; the end user is what determines the usage and its content, not the developer. With Emby being open source; it faces the same potential for abuses as Kodi. But Kodi had and still has a great impression with its users. Most people that cannot distinguish the differences between the illegal kodi boxes and kodi itself will never touch the software to begin with. Just as most people that would label EMBY as just another front end that houses illegal content will never know what it really is or how its avid supporters use it.. That is; until someone gets caught doing something illegal - that should be the realization; not the potential of what it could be used for. Anything has the potential of being abused.

 

What should be and what is are two different things.

 

As Luke said, we have to deal with what is and that is that the app stores all can allow or disallow any app they want for any reason they want.  So we have to keep perception as paramount in this context.

  • Like 1

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