One of my files won't play

[ebr 14935]

5 hours ago, crusher11 said:

All my other identically-encoded files Direct Play just fine.

 

Pretty sure they are not identical in structure.  Based on what you are seeing, my guess is that some header or index information is not where it is supposed to be according to spec.  When we direct stream it, that information is re-written in the expected place.

Exo is not very resilient in any deviation from the spec or expected structure of the file.  We have made some improvements in this area but not for everything yet.  If you remux  this file, does it play properly?

[vdatanet 1549]

4 minutes ago, ebr said:

That's just not true.  With that same logic you could say it isn't direct play if the storage isn't physically connected to the device.  All of these are protocols for delivering the data.  If the data isn't being altered in any way, then it is direct playing that data.

Mounting the files on the local filesystem does not convert them to local, the server's smbd daemon is needed to deliver the file. In practical matters it is the same, simply the protocol is different.

[CBers 6771]

4 minutes ago, ebr said:

That's just not true.  With that same logic you could say it isn't direct play if the storage isn't physically connected to the device.  All of these are protocols for delivering the data.  If the data isn't being altered in any way, then it is direct playing that data.

Here we go again.

Not getting into it, but this has been discussed over and over again in the last 8.5 years and agreement has never been reached between users and devs.
 

[Carlo 4330]

There are two forms of Direct Play (file is not touched or changed) in the Emby ecosystem.

All devices support the first method which is Direct Play via http streaming from the Emby Server.
The second method is a hand off of the file path to the client (only some clients can do this and requires special setup) which allows it to play from the file system without going through the Emby Server.

The Shield TV is one of the clients that can Direct Play either way.

Stats for nerds on the Shield will differentiate between the two by listing the playback in Stream type as "HTTP" or "FILE". In both cases SFN will show the Play method as "Direct Play".

The key to this is the client is getting the media file as is and playing it back without the server changing it in any way.  The transport mechanism doesn't matter.

 

[CBers 6771]

35 minutes ago, cayars said:

There are two forms of Direct Play (file is not touched or changed) in the Emby ecosystem.

All devices support the first method which is Direct Play via http streaming from the Emby Server.
The second method is a hand off of the file path to the client (only some clients can do this and requires special setup) which allows it to play from the file system without going through the Emby Server.

The Shield TV is one of the clients that can Direct Play either way.

Stats for nerds on the Shield will differentiate between the two by listing the playback in Stream type as "HTTP" or "FILE". In both cases SFN will show the Play method as "Direct Play".

The key to this is the client is getting the media file as is and playing it back without the server changing it in any way.  The transport mechanism doesn't matter.

 

Thanks, you've made my point.

Streaming is not direct, as it goes though the Emby server.

Using http to get the file from one point to another is streaming.

If you restart the Emby server whilst streaming (http), playback will stop.

If you restart the Emby server during true Direct Play (file), playback will continue.
 

[ebr 14935]

3 minutes ago, CBers said:

Using http to get the file from one point to another is streaming.

That is a completely arbitrary definition.  That's like saying using the Interstate is flying.  HTTP is a transfer protocol.  So is SMB.  But, as you said, we've had this discussion over and over.  You are stumbling up on the access method instead of the playback method.  But, even using what you call "direct file access" is still using some protocol over a network to access a file remotely (meaning not on the actual device - still in your LAN).

Now, the access is not direct because the server is acting as a middle man but that's not what were trying to get across when we talk about a playback method.  What we care about with the playback method is whether or not a conversion of the video stream or container is taking place.  In the ATV app (which has an option for direct access) we also indicate the access method in the stats.  In 95%+ of cases the access path is irrelevant and it is not a factor at all in this particular case.

Consider this dead horse beaten .

[FrostByte 5052]

[pwhodges 1534]

But you've been banned from the Olympics! (ref: Modern Pentathlon, 2020/1)

Paul

[CBers 6771]

18 minutes ago, ebr said:

That is a completely arbitrary definition.  That's like saying using the Interstate is flying.  HTTP is a transfer protocol.  So is SMB.  But, as you said, we've had this discussion over and over.  You are stumbling up on the access method instead of the playback method.  But, even using what you call "direct file access" is still using some protocol over a network to access a file remotely (meaning not on the actual device - still in your LAN).

Now, the access is not direct because the server is acting as a middle man but that's not what were trying to get across when we talk about a playback method.  What we care about with the playback method is whether or not a conversion of the video stream or container is taking place.  In the ATV app (which has an option for direct access) we also indicate the access method in the stats.  In 95%+ of cases the access path is irrelevant and it is not a factor at all in this particular case.

Consider this dead horse beaten .

Thanks for agreeing with me.
 

[Carlo 4330]

10 minutes ago, CBers said:

Thanks for agreeing with me.
 

He didn't.

Direct Play is about the playback method not the transport mechanism.

It's been defined and covered in the KB area:
https://support.emby.media/support/solutions/articles/44001920144-direct-play-vs-direct-streaming-vs-transcoding

[Carlo 4330]

20 minutes ago, FrostByte said:

I'm reporting you for animal abuse!  LOL

[CBers 6771]

2 minutes ago, cayars said:

He didn't.

Direct Play is about the playback method not the transport mechanism.

It's been defined and covered in the KB area:
https://support.emby.media/support/solutions/articles/44001920144-direct-play-vs-direct-streaming-vs-transcoding

So the KB is wrong - you have Direct Stream mixed up with transcoding/remuxing.

Direct Play is direct from disk, which only the ATV app on a Shield can do, or Emby for Media Centre.

Direct Streaming is an unaltered feed via the server.

We have been over this time and time again on these forums and it never gets resolved.

Perhaps we should continue this conversation elsewhere and not take over C11's thread.

I'm sure @sooty234 started a thread somewhere.
 

[CBers 6771]

On 13/01/2017 at 20:35, speechles said:

 

[Carlo 4330]

7 minutes ago, CBers said:

So the KB is wrong - you have Direct Stream mixed up with transcoding/remuxing.

Direct Play is direct from disk, which only the ATV app on a Shield can do, or Emby for Media Centre.

Direct Streaming is an unaltered feed via the server.

We have been over this time and time again on these forums and it never gets resolved.

Perhaps we should continue this conversation elsewhere and not take over C11's thread.

I'm sure @sooty234 started a thread somewhere.
 

Sorry CBers but that's just not accurate in the Emby world and has been covered many times already.

Direct streaming in the Emby world can be more than just a package change and always has been. Technically some things that fall into Direct Streaming are "transcoding" but Emby has always considered "light processes" like audio conversion a "direct stream" not a transcode.  Transcode in Emby terms is reserved for when the video is changed (plus anything else) as it's a heavier process.

[Carlo 4330]

Direct Play = Untouched media used as is regardless of transport mechanism
Direct Stream = Light manipulation of the media that most servers can handle like audio conversion, package change, subtitle manipulation, etc
Transcoding = Any modification of the media that at least changes the video in some way which is a heavier process on the system.  May also include any other manipulation of the media as well.

Edited August 10, 2021 by cayars

[GrimReaper 3312]

Well, this debate surely never gets old. Anyway, although we will never all see eye-to-eye, I do tend to lean towards @CBers's view: word "Direct" should refer to something direct, as-is, unaltered. "Direct Streaming" encompassing Remux simply ain't. Besides, "Streaming" has practically become a synonym for watching something from the web, i.e. linking it to http would surely fit into that mindset, while leaving "Direct Play" only for file serving. Introduce "Remux" category in addition and we would have all bases covered: DirectPlay, DirectStream, Remux, Transcoding. 

[Carlo 4330]

8 minutes ago, GrimReaper76 said:

Well, this debate surely never gets old.  

Yea it never does.

The technical person in me doesn't always like the terms used either but the 3 classification of streaming have more to do with resource usage IMHO. So if a person is having trouble streaming and you know the type of stream (ie Direct vs Transcode) it's much easier to focus in on potential issues.

[GrimReaper 3312]

3 minutes ago, cayars said:

So if a person is having trouble streaming and you know the type of stream (ie Direct vs Transcode) it's much easier to focus in on potential issues

How does that differ from Remux/Transcode? You would know same from the start, "Direct" Play or Stream would only refer to the serving method of unaltered file. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by GrimReaper76

[ebr 14935]

35 minutes ago, GrimReaper76 said:

word "Direct" should refer to something direct, as-is, unaltered.

And that is exactly what we are doing when we "Direct play".  Regardless of how the file was transported to the device - it is unaltered when it arrives. 

[GrimReaper 3312]

Just now, ebr said:

And that is exactly what we are doing when we "Direct play".  Regardless of how the file was transported to the device - it is unaltered. 

Following same logic, you should drop "Direct" from "Direct Streaming" then and leave it only on "Streaming". As per current iteration, there ain't anything direct with it - it's altered one way or another. 

[ebr 14935]

1 minute ago, GrimReaper76 said:

you should drop "Direct" from "Direct Streaming"

No, because when we say "Direct Streaming" that means that the video stream is unaltered - only possibly re-packaged in a different container or transport.  So that is a very important distinction.

We've had this conversation at least 10 times and we're just repeating it here.  In the scope of what we're doing and the competition, the terms we are using are correct.

[GrimReaper 3312]

12 minutes ago, ebr said:

No, because when we say "Direct Streaming" that means that the video stream is unaltered - only possibly re-packaged in a different container or transport.  So that is a very important distinction.

That's because you're looking only at the video component of a file - and not at an item as a whole. And adjusting terminology to accomodate that. 

[crusher11 854]

None of this has anything to do with my issue. There's now over a page of posts nitpicking a completely irrelevant term, and I still can't watch my video file using the Android TV app.

[GrimReaper 3312]

23 minutes ago, ebr said:

We've had this conversation at least 10 times and we're just repeating it here.

Your should really leave your edits visible, I almost missed that one. And yeah, ain't that the truth. Still, it doesn't hurt to debate it every now and then, as they say: "Change is the only constant."

[FrostByte 5052]

3 minutes ago, crusher11 said:

None of this has anything to do with my issue. There's now over a page of posts nitpicking a completely irrelevant term, and I still can't watch my video file using the Android TV app.

Your threads are usually 30 pages long anyway, what's another page or so?