Logitech officially discontinues its line of Harmony universal remotes

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

Logitech officially discontinues its line of Harmony universal remotes

Since I know there are a lot of people that depend on Harmony remotes I thought this would be of interest.

I am sure, well at least pretty sure, that my current Harmony remote will work for a few years so I may not have to replace it for a while. (Or at all as my age is in the "old" category and my health is rather far from the best.) However I would be interested in what others are using other than Harmony for a universe remote that has the ability to handle several devices and has something like "activities" to activate the correct devices to watch whatever I wish to and have the ability to control the correct devices for what is being done without having to choose each device to use it.

That is if I want to watch using my Roku I just choose "Roku" and then my TV, Receiver, HDMI switch and any other devices involved and all the required devices are activated and set to the correct inputs set and the ones not being used are turned off. Then my main keys are correctly mapped on my remote so it controls the volume on my receiver, controls the picture on my TV and controls my Roku with all functions available.

My current Harmony does that and I have almost never had to learn any functions at all although I do have to move some keys around.

Basically I am asking if anyone knows of a near direct replacement for my Harmony Ultimate Home.

I need nine (minimum) devices available and a way to integrate any grouping of those into one task or activity.

[Luke 37132]

With most devices supporting HDMI-CEC very well now, I don't feel like a universal remote is needed anymore.

For example, if I click a button on my Apple TV remote, the tv gets turned on, set to the correct HDMI input, and the soundbar gets set to the correct input as well. Volume then controls the soundbar just like I want it to.

Or I can use the Nvidia Shield or Roku in the same manner, and also switch back and forth between them anytime I want just by pressing buttons on their remotes.

[Spaceboy 2500]

5 minutes ago, Luke said:

With most devices supporting HDMI-CEC very well now, I don't feel like a universal remote is needed anymore.

For example, if I click a button on my Apple TV remote, the tv gets turned on, set to the correct HDMI input, and the soundbar gets set to the correct input as well. Volume then controls the soundbar just like I want it to.

Or I can use the Nvidia Shield or Roku in the same manner, and also switch back and forth between them anytime I want just by pressing buttons on their remotes.

i don't fine hdmi cec to be as reliable as that

i will be buying another harmony elite to keep in reserve in case either of mine die

[Sammy 738]

As long as they still support them I'm good. 

We're between homes having sold in January and not able to find what we're looking for in this insane real estate market so my biggest concern is being able to update my 900's and Elite when we do find a place since we left several wall mounted TV's behind.

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

17 minutes ago, Sammy said:

As long as they still support them I'm good. 

We're between homes having sold in January and not able to find what we're looking for in this insane real estate market so my biggest concern is being able to update my 900's and Elite when we do find a place since we left several wall mounted TV's behind.

You should be aware that Harmonies, in general, are vulnerable to button failure where buttons become intermittently unresponsive or "sticky." If you use a Harmony remote for a long time buttons will stop working. In the last 15 years I have had to replace two for that reason.

Also I find HDMI-CEC to be unreliable and unable to control even half of my devices correctly  I doubt I will live long enough to see it become good enough for me to use much.

[Guest]

I played with the Unified Remote App on Windows 10... didn't see an Emby entry on it.. but I could still use my phone from across the room to control it..

Did you ever pull the remote apart and try cleaning the contacts and rubber pad for the remote?

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

10 minutes ago, Hxemby001 said:

Did you ever pull the remote apart and try cleaning the contacts and rubber pad for the remote?

Even 20 years ago I would have done such a thing. But I have become "older" and my fine motor skills and my vision have deteriorated over the years. Now it is very hard for me to work on tiny components like are found on the inside of remotes. Also most of the Harmony line of remotes are very hard to open and, often, even harder, sometimes, to reassemble.

The electronics industry has for years been using a breeding program to produce small people with tiny hands and fingers and enhanced vision to assemble the ever more small and densely populated electronics we use. They are even trying to give these assemblers extra "eyes" at the base of the thumb to allow them to see what they are doing better.

The breeding program along with genetic manipulation is what allows them to make and assemble such tiny and densely populated electronic devices.

But that would not stop me from trying but, when my harmony remotes failed, I felt it was time to replace them anyway. Because of this move by Logitech I may well purchase a workstation with magnification and miniature tools to allow me to try to fix that kind of device.

[Guest]

LOL..   Should have seen me disassemble one of my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL's and put it back together... I still have to take it back apart and see why my retina scanner isn't working.. but I could have destroyed it when I broke it.. don't know.. pretty sure I got it back together though... wasn't EXTREMELY hard but.. wasn't easy either..

[softworkz 3341]

IMO, the best universal remote they made is the Harmony One and their sudden death is primarily a suicide which had been consequently planned over years.
I'll explain:

The one really outstanding and unparalleled feature of the Harmony One is...surely not its display...not its visual appearance...not its touch interface......it's the haptic design! 
If you don't know the model - don't bother looking up pictures. You must have had it in your hand. 

Despite its large number of buttons, it was incredibly easy and intuitive to operate, even when you're half sleeping. The IR lighting strength was extreme: while a Samsung or LG remote requires you to aim at the TV's bottom with no more than 20° deviation to work properly, you could just point into the opposite direction with the Harmony One (similar like other Harmony devices, but the "One" has been the "strongest"´). 
It has been a perfect match for WMC, one of the reasons being that it was the last Harmony to have separate buttons for Skip Next/Previous and FRwd/FFwd. For those who remember: In WMC, you had many ways to navigate in a video, pressing FRwd/FFwd short or long and then Skip-Buttons short, or Skip-Button long and then FRwd/FFwd short, etc.
That wasn't possible anymore with later Harmony remotes, because they have those buttons combined, and to send one vs. the other, you need to press long or short under the remote control's control, which means, that the long/short operation of those buttons can't be transmitted as such (e.g. to WMC).
I had also tried the Elite, but after 2 days I started buying used Harmony One models for spare. The Elite's signal is not as strong as the One's signal, but much worse than that: it has a delay between button press and signal sending (like 100-300ms) that the One doesn't have.

The biggest mistake they made - IMO - was to go steep for touch operation. The problem is, that product managers often think that it's the right way for every product, because it's the "modern style" of user experience. So, they started removing more and more buttons and made the touch display bigger and bigger. 
And what comes at the end of that road? The remote control will simply converge to something that everybody already has: a smart phone!

What I'm wondering: is that really what people want and expect from a remote control? Touch operation? 
For me, that's a clear 'No'. I don't need an additional inferior wannabee smart phone mockup.

I rather want a remote control that perfectly fulfills its "job" as a remote control. 
The Elite has already gotten off-track in this regard and from there it just got worse.

Edited April 11, 2021 by softworkz

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, softworkz said:

'No'. I don't need an additional inferior wannabee smart phone mockup.

Years ago I got tired of everything looking like an ( no offense people ) Android with Little Tikes Toys design.. even apps and programs.. to be mixed with settings that are 'dumbed-up'..

It is one thing to watch a marketing strategy to increase changes of profitability and success.. but to use some common sense in test cases is better.. like who is going to buying it and using for what purpose.. ( while I rant crazily about this.. )

I swear, for everybody.. the same thing.. no option... Its one thing for someone to say.. I don't know how to operate it.. or I am afraid.. but to loose function and form.. as well as having the look you need and something to please the wide ranging demands.. to make a sell or stream along the resurgence of the franchise which has become the smart phone... It is one thing to look at how certain entities ( un-named - die nameless! I say.. nah joking  ) have made their rise to the top.. it is one thing..  but when someone walks up to me with a device and they are a computer nerd.. I say I write code... I am person who needs options and power at my fingertips.. not redundant but specific.. to function. Its nice to bring something in infancy to the table and deem it a good idea... but it must come along..

It does in fact get old, to loose these things in our lives. At the same time I don't want to have to write code to get it done.. some things should be OBVIOUSLY needed..

Like trading this...

For one of these...

[Sammy 738]

Nobody wants to take their eyes off the TV during the show to find the "button" they're looking for. Simple, tactile buttons that click and are logically organized is all we need..

 

Personally, I prefer the 900's for the ability to mount small AndroidTV boxes on the back of TV's and control them without seeing them.

I also like the Elite for it's ability to also control my Home Automation too but yes, it started to loose some important buttons to only have to program them onto the touch screen. 

[clarkss12 296]

I stopped using my Logitech a few months ago, because I got tired of re-programing it... I am constantly swapping devices, and some devices I don't want to turn off, so it is a pain to go through all those Logitech settings, every time I add a new device.......

CEC is also, not do what I want it to do.  Now I am controlling my system with my Yamaha and TV remotes, to change inputs and power on and off.

[Spaceboy 2500]

11 hours ago, softworkz said:

IMO, the best universal remote they made is the Harmony One and their sudden death is primarily a suicide which had been consequently planned over years.
I'll explain:

The one really outstanding and unparalleled feature of the Harmony One is...surely not its display...not its visual appearance...not its touch interface......it's the haptic design! 
If you don't know the model - don't bother looking up pictures. You must have had it in your hand. 

Despite its large number of buttons, it was incredibly easy and intuitive to operate, even when you're half sleeping. The IR lighting strength was extreme: while a Samsung or LG remote requires you to aim at the TV's bottom with no more than 20° deviation to work properly, you could just point into the opposite direction with the Harmony One (similar like other Harmony devices, but the "One" has been the "strongest"´). 
It has been a perfect match for WMC, one of the reasons being that it was the last Harmony to have separate buttons for Skip Next/Previous and FRwd/FFwd. For those who remember: In WMC, you had many ways to navigate in a video, pressing FRwd/FFwd short or long and then Skip-Buttons short, or Skip-Button long and then FRwd/FFwd short, etc.
That wasn't possible anymore with later Harmony remotes, because they have those buttons combined, and to send one vs. the other, you need to press long or short under the remote control's control, which means, that the long/short operation of those buttons can't be transmitted as such (e.g. to WMC).
I had also tried the Elite, but after 2 days I started buying used Harmony One models for spare. The Elite's signal is not as strong as the One's signal, but much worse than that: it has a delay between button press and signal sending (like 100-300ms) that the One doesn't have.

The biggest mistake they made - IMO - was to go steep for touch operation. The problem is, that product managers often think that it's the right way for every product, because it's the "modern style" of user experience. So, they started removing more and more buttons and made the touch display bigger and bigger. 
And what comes at the end of that road? The remote control will simply converge to something that everybody already has: a smart phone!

What I'm wondering: is that really what people want and expect from a remote control? Touch operation? 
For me, that's a clear 'No'. I don't need an additional inferior wannabee smart phone mockup.

I rather want a remote control that perfectly fulfills its "job" as a remote control. 
The Elite has already gotten off-track in this regard and from there it just got worse.

weird, i have 2 elites and will buy a third. i see no delay in signal sending, it doesnt need to be pointed at the hub at all and i never use the touch screen so i find it hard to reconcile your observations with mine?

[Q-Droid 657]

Losing the Harmony Hub would really suck. Is there anything else like it?

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

27 minutes ago, Q-Droid said:

Losing the Harmony Hub would really suck. Is there anything else like it?

I have not really found one. Of course the "hub" is the most stable part of Harmony's ecosystem. Also Harmony is going to continue support "for the foreseeable future" so things like the Harmony Android app should continue functioning well.

Of course what will stop, and it is important, is support for "new" devices as they will not be added to the database. That means that the only way to add a device that is not currently in the database would be to add some similar device and use the learning function to make everything work mostly correctly. Harmony allows relearning of even pre-defined keys.

I expect the physical remote to fail at some point well before the hub fails so I expect I will be able to use the hub for the foreseeable future.

BTW: You can use Alexa and the harmony hub with a Roku and have access to some control via voice. I am not real sure exactly how I got it set up because I was trying a lot of things but during playback I can simply say "Alexa pause" or "Alexa pause" and anything playing on my Roku will respond accordingly. That means that the main thing I need to feel physical button for is covered.

I am sure that some things will eventually fail that cannot be covered in other ways but I believe that will not happen for several years and, as I am old and in poor health, my "system" will probably outlive me.

My mind does not work like it used to so I may well be forgetting something that will change everything.
You know how people can walk into a room and forget why they went there? I can walk into a room and forget what room it is.
"Mind Like A Steel Trap - Dirty rusty And Illegal In 37 States."

[Q-Droid 657]

That's the unfortunate part. To me a Hub without a remote is just a box with a green LED.

I'm a bit of a luddite. No ECHO, no NEST, no Ring, no voice controlled anything, no connected "smart" home gadgets. I got the Hub with the Smart Control remote because I want one with buttons to operate without having to looking at it. So touch screen/smart phone/tablet app would be far from ideal. If the remote breaks I'll have to look for another, used or refurb, but the reality is they'll go up in price as they become scarce and eventually will disappear. Then no choice but to move on to some other product that doesn't check all of the boxes the way Harmony does.

 

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

42 minutes ago, Q-Droid said:

That's the unfortunate part. To me a Hub without a remote is just a box with a green LED.

I'm a bit of a luddite. No ECHO, no NEST, no Ring, no voice controlled anything, no connected "smart" home gadgets. I got the Hub with the Smart Control remote because I want one with buttons to operate without having to looking at it. So touch screen/smart phone/tablet app would be far from ideal. If the remote breaks I'll have to look for another, used or refurb, but the reality is they'll go up in price as they become scarce and eventually will disappear. Then no choice but to move on to some other product that doesn't check all of the boxes the way Harmony does.

 

If you really want to keep everything working as is you might want to buy a couple of extra remotes and even, maybe, one additional hub and keep them in their original packaging and store the boxes in some kind of hermetically sealed storage and only open it if something breaks.

The only real drawback to that is, as I found last year, is that replacing a remote that is attached to a hub is not really trivial. But it is not horrible in that your activities will be retained. However all customizations get reset so you have to redo anything "special" you have set like the mapping of keys on the remote etc. It is not horrible but it is tedious if you have a lot of things customized.

I wonder if someone (some company) will build third party hub compatible remotes? I would think that could be profitable but there may not be enough hubs out in the wild to make it a viable business decision.

[softworkz 3341]

9 hours ago, Spaceboy said:

weird, i have 2 elites and will buy a third. i see no delay in signal sending, it doesnt need to be pointed at the hub at all and i never use the touch screen so i find it hard to reconcile your observations with mine?

It's about buttons with double operation where a different signal is sent when pressing long. This means that the signal can't be sent immediately when pressing down the button (because at this time, the remote "doesn't know yet" whether it will be a long press).

I never had a hub. What I meant is sending IR signals to a device directly, and I didn't mean that the Elite is bad in doing so, it is still much better than the original device remotes. I just meant that the Harmony One was even a bit stronger, but that's not a bad point for the Elite. You said, you never use the touch screen - and I don't do either. So why sacrifice the space for  a touch display where you could have mechanical buttons instead?

I'm not against touch displays - just the opposite: several years before the iPhone came out, I had an HTC MDA, then XDA-2, and I told everybody - whether or not he wanted to hear - that in the future all mobile phones will be like them: just a touch display covering most of the available space. Most people were just laughing, shaking heads or told me about the incredible benefits of their Nokia phones with T9 text input and 5 text rows monochrome LCD display which would be all they'll ever need.

But technology must not be used based on availability but on its fitness for a certain purpose. For example, I think it's great that more and bigger displays are built into new automobiles - but that doesn't mean that all knobs and levers should be spared out and made to be touch-controllable only. A plus/minus-button volume control will always be inferior to a turning knob (because with +/-, the speed of volume change is fixed).

For a remote control, it's important that you can operate without looking at it - at least most of the time; for certain tasks, a small display is surely useful. I don't mean that in a retroactive way - let's get innovative: a remote could have buttons where each button has its own mini-display. Or a full-surface display with transparent - but still haptic buttons. Or a polymer based display-surface that can be electro-chemically deformed for building different haptic button layouts.
Bottom line is simply that it can be operated without looking at it...

When developing a product, you should always consider what's the best possible way, not what might currently be considered to be "more modern" ( @ebr @Luke - you know what I mean)

Edited April 11, 2021 by softworkz

[Spaceboy 2500]

14 hours ago, softworkz said:

It's about buttons with double operation where a different signal is sent when pressing long. This means that the signal can't be sent immediately when pressing down the button (because at this time, the remote "doesn't know yet" whether it will be a long press).

I never had a hub. What I meant is sending IR signals to a device directly, and I didn't mean that the Elite is bad in doing so, it is still much better than the original device remotes. I just meant that the Harmony One was even a bit stronger, but that's not a bad point for the Elite. You said, you never use the touch screen - and I don't do either. So why sacrifice the space for  a touch display where you could have mechanical buttons instead?

I'm not against touch displays - just the opposite: several years before the iPhone came out, I had an HTC MDA, then XDA-2, and I told everybody - whether or not he wanted to hear - that in the future all mobile phones will be like them: just a touch display covering most of the available space. Most people were just laughing, shaking heads or told me about the incredible benefits of their Nokia phones with T9 text input and 5 text rows monochrome LCD display which would be all they'll ever need.

But technology must not be used based on availability but on its fitness for a certain purpose. For example, I think it's great that more and bigger displays are built into new automobiles - but that doesn't mean that all knobs and levers should be spared out and made to be touch-controllable only. A plus/minus-button volume control will always be inferior to a turning knob (because with +/-, the speed of volume change is fixed).

For a remote control, it's important that you can operate without looking at it - at least most of the time; for certain tasks, a small display is surely useful. I don't mean that in a retroactive way - let's get innovative: a remote could have buttons where each button has its own mini-display. Or a full-surface display with transparent - but still haptic buttons. Or a polymer based display-surface that can be electro-chemically deformed for building different haptic button layouts.
Bottom line is simply that it can be operated without looking at it...

When developing a product, you should always consider what's the best possible way, not what might currently be considered to be "more modern" ( @ebr @Luke - you know what I mean)

you not having a hub explains it

agree to some extent on the touch screen. i don't feel that there are any other buttons that i would want to add to my set up, in fact i don't make use of all of the buttons on the elite for emby as it is. there are a limited number that are supported.

[ebr 14939]

I stopped using my Harmony remotes when I fully moved over to the Shield for daily driver.  Its new remote will turn on my TV and receiver and wake up the shield and then control everything I need to - including volume which operates either the Shield or the AVR depending on the exact mode.

I think, just like HTPCs these complex systems are just getting to be too small of a market for large companies to justify the expense of continuing to support.  It is no longer a money-making proposition for them.

[Spaceboy 2500]

as much as i love the shield itself, neither the flat 2017 remote, nor the ridiculous toblerone shaped 2019 remote worked for me design wise. function aside

[adrianwi 238]

I love my Harmony Elite and Hub and will also be looking to pick up a spare if I can find one at a reasonable price.  

While CEC might work, you still end up with several remotes for different devices.  I have a single remote that controls my TV, Soundbar, Apple TV, TiVo, Firestick, Blu-ray Player (although I can't remember the last time I used it), Hue Lights and Projector and activities that configure the buttons for each with a single click.  

I had a programmable Philips remote that did some of those things, but unless you knew which buttons did what you couldn't use it.  Guests would struggle to even turn the TV on.  Visitors can just pick up the Elite and use it with little if any guidance.

 

[jachin99 82]

CEC is kind of a crapshoot.  I have some equipment it works with, and some it doesn't.  I tried Harmony and I always thought the software was terrible.  For a HTPC, I always preferred eventghost.  It could do things Harmony couldn't dream of.  For instance, I had a script mapped to a button on my MCE remote where kodi would check and see if a DVD was inserted, and if it was it would go to the DVD menu but if there wasn't a dvd, then the same button would take me to my movies screen.  I had a few setup like this, and it was starting to get really complex but then then I switched to the shield.  i still wish I could use the shield remote with EventGhost but I havent really tried because CEC works good enough.  

Edited April 12, 2021 by jachin99

[Gilgamesh_48 944]

4 minutes ago, jachin99 said:

CEC is kind of a crapshoot.  I have some equipment it works with, and some it doesn't.  I tried Harmony and I always thought the software was terrible.

Well, if were based only on the software I would, probably, never use any Harmony product. But with a Harmony you only need to access the software rarely.

Fortunately once it is set up the software on the remote and on the Harmony app just work.

The only times in the recent past that I actually used Harmony's software was when I added or removed a device or when I wanted to change the mapping of some key on the remote or in the Android app. (Harmony's Android app is actually pretty good.)

But you bring up something to think about: What happens if the support remains as they said it would but Windows or Android issue an update that breaks the app and Harmony no longer has programmers familiar with whatever language the software was written in. I know that would, probably, be a long ways down the road but it is something to think about. It is not like it is rare for Microsoft to make a release that breaks things.

Yes. This is a "First World" problem and I "can" just use regular remotes but I really like my Harmony and losing it would be a lot like having a beloved dog pass away or a close friend move away.

[softworkz 3341]

14 minutes ago, Gilgamesh_48 said:

But you bring up something to think about: What happens if the support remains as they said it would but Windows or Android issue an update that breaks the app and Harmony no longer has programmers familiar with whatever language the software was written in. I know that would, probably, be a long ways down the road but it is something to think about. It is not like it is rare for Microsoft to make a release that breaks things.

Windows is the only operating system in the world where it's possible to run applications (without recompiling) that are even > 20 years old. So I wouldn't be concerned about that.

But, the device database is not part of the Harmony application. This database is Logitech's highest value in the game (or has been at least), and the Harmony app only downloads the IR codes for devices you are requesting, so you'll never be able to get the full data. They are tracking your device assignments per remote's serial number. I'm very sure about that, because at one time, my display was defect and they just sent me a completely new remote without letting me send in the defect one. The one was still working, just the display was showing garbage, but after the replacement, I couldn't update the defect one anymore through the Windows application.

That means: the critical issue is not that the app might no longer be working. It's rather Logitech's backend. As soon as they switch that off,  nobody will be able to update their remote anymore.