What's the plan with Dolby Vision profile 7?

[Dodgexander 8]

It's make or break time for me to choose my platform going forward for my home setup. Using an Android TV after a Roku TV before now means I'm forced to buy the emby app, or a premiere subscription.

Meanwhile I've discovered using another rival platform the Android app is free and already seems to work with Dolby Vision UHD rips.

But I digress, I want to stay with emby. I don't mind paying for it because if anything the support alone here is so good.

However, a major factor for me in the future is how UHD Blu-Ray rips are going to be handled with Dolby Vision video.

I've done my fair share of research on profiles and layers and understand different TVs support different profiles, but also that different source devices like the Nvidia shield, Roku ultra or Google TV also have limitations to profile support.

So my question to the emby devs is: what's the plan of action to reliably detect and pass the correct data to the TV? Profile 5 is easy right? Every streaming device, TV and their dog sports it.. But how is emby going to handle profile 7 both from integrated smart tv and dedicated streaming sources?

What's more, how is the user going to determine the correct untouched data is being received by the TV?

As far as I know there's some platforms and devices that seem to be strictly profile 5 only, and if they do support profile 7 they can only do so with only the basic enhancement layer(no decode needed). In a playback chain without any decoding support for a profile 7 extended enhancement layer at the source or at the TV, does this mean Dolby Vision UHD won't be possible?

Finally, how will emby determine which device supports which profile, and at what stage to decode? Will the server be able to remux profile 7 into profile 5 so certain devices can understand it?

Will emby be able to notice and pass on profile 7 data from a device that has no profile 7 decoding support to a connected TV that has profile 7 decoding? If so, how to determine which device the TV is connected too?

As far as decoding support, how can we understand what's supported? As far as I understand...

Devices with no profile 7 support:

Shield 2019, Roku ultra, Google tv, fire stick 4k/cube, virtually every other streaming device including mi stick, zidoo, vero etc, Sony TVs (maybe not X900H or their 2021 models in future).

Devices with unknown support:

Hisense H89/H9G, TCL and Vizio TV models. - how to find the supported profiles?

Devices that seem to have full support:

LG models, Panasonic (via HDMI)

So what's the plan of action? Why should I continue to use emby instead of another platform that already seems to have full support.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Dodgexander

[ebr 14924]

Hi.  Have you tried the beta version of our Android TV app?

 

[Dodgexander 8]

No because my two week trial has come to an end.

Any chance of answering my questions, in particular how emby plans to handle profile 7 rips?

[FrostByte 5052]

The latest version of Exoplayer with DV support is in the beta.  There are many people playing DV profile 7 rips using a Shield 2019, etc and triggering DV on their TVs.

[Dodgexander 8]

5 hours ago, FrostByte said:

The latest version of Exoplayer with DV support is in the beta.  There are many people playing DV profile 7 rips using a Shield 2019, etc and triggering DV on their TVs.

Thanks. Yes, I've seen this, but it doesn't really answer any of my questions. I was hoping to get an idea of what emby's strategy was going forward, how its possible to determine the content is playing correctly and how its possible to determine the profile supported by the TV or the smart device.

Unfortunately just receiving the Dolby symbol on the TV isn't really a sign of playback working correctly. It's been known that Dolby Vision can trigger on a TV using incorrect profiles and incorrect color spaces, in fact, its even been triggered when Dolby Vision isn't being used at all. A good example of this is those using the Shield with Sony TVs, if Dolby Vision triggers on UHD Blu-Ray rips using profile 7  when the TV does not support profile 7, then something is wrong..or emby is doing something we should know about.

I was hoping to get a technical answer from emby direct, there's plenty of other technical discussion taking place on the forum, I think its not much to ask is it?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Dodgexander

[Luke 37096]

Just now, Dodgexander said:

Thanks. Yes, I've seen this, but it doesn't really answer any of my questions. I was hoping to get an idea of what emby's strategy was going forward, how its possible to determine the content is playing correctly and how its possible to determine the profile supported by the TV or the smart device.

Unfortunately just receiving the Dolby symbol on the TV isn't really a sign of playback working correctly. It's been known that Dolby Vision can trigger on a TV using incorrect profiles and incorrect color spaces, in fact, its even been triggered when Dolby Vision isn't being used at all. A good example of this is those using the Shield with Sony TVs, if Dolby Vision triggers on UHD Blu-Ray rips using profile 7  when the TV does not support profile 7, then something is wrong..or emby is doing something we should know about.

Hi, if you have a specific issue to report then we'll be happy to investigate it.

[Dodgexander 8]

11 minutes ago, Luke said:

Hi, if you have a specific issue to report then we'll be happy to investigate it.

I'd like to know the answer to my questions in the opening post. Can you explain the plan going forward and how emby will determine correct profile support?

[ebr 14924]

Hi.  It is impossible for us to answer questions of hypothetical inputs and targets because there could be any number of possibilities.  Our current beta of the app should be handling DV properly for displays that support it.  The next version should not allow DV to be sent to a display that won't support DV at all.

At this time, the only information Android gives us is "does this display support Dolby Vision".  It does not go into specific profiles so fine tuning this will be a process of figuring out how to best handle each situation in the real world.

[Dodgexander 8]

42 minutes ago, ebr said:

Hi.  It is impossible for us to answer questions of hypothetical inputs and targets because there could be any number of possibilities.  Our current beta of the app should be handling DV properly for displays that support it.  The next version should not allow DV to be sent to a display that won't support DV at all.

At this time, the only information Android gives us is "does this display support Dolby Vision".  It does not go into specific profiles so fine tuning this will be a process of figuring out how to best handle each situation in the real world.

That's disappointing. So its basically a case of trial and error and user feedback on a model or make, by make process? A bit similar to audio codec support?

The fear I have is that there's TVs out there like Sony models that don't include any profile 7 support at all. If emby passes on profile 7 data to the display, then it won't correctly be displayed. Not displaying at all is another matter, and probably unsolvable unless there's a way for emby to decode the data itself.

The whole idea behind profile 7 is that when connected to an unsupported device, it falls back to HDR10. In these cases where the display does not support profile 7, UHD Blu-Ray players do the processing themselves and pass it to the display. For emby to act the same way as these players it would need to have dolby vision decoding support built in, otherwise UHD Blu-Ray playback won't work. Are there any plans to obtain this processing, or to disable the passing of certain Dolby Vision profiles to incompatible devices?

How do we test the playback chain is correct, other than looking for picture quality issues?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Dodgexander

[ebr 14924]

43 minutes ago, Dodgexander said:

it would need to have dolby vision decoding support built in, otherwise UHD Blu-Ray playback won't work. Are there any plans to obtain this processing

No current plans.  We could possibly investigate but my guess is that licensing would be an issue.

[RanmaCanada 345]

You are asking the dev team if they will support a format that is not supported, which has no real TV support, and has an unknown future.  Why don't you just ask them for lottery numbers instead, it would be far easier.

[Dodgexander 8]

1 hour ago, RanmaCanada said:

You are asking the dev team if they will support a format that is not supported, which has no real TV support, and has an unknown future.  Why don't you just ask them for lottery numbers instead, it would be far easier.

Profile 5 is supported by most TVs with Dolby Vision. Only Sony are known to lack it. I don't see how its unreasonable to ask what they plan is. Plex have replied candidly about it here: 

https://forums.plex.tv/t/whats-the-status-of-dolby-vision-atmos-on-plex-re-lg-webos-nvidia-shield-apple-tv/659955/84?u=dodgexander

Also, why the need to be so rude? If you don't have anything useful to add, just don't say anything at all.

[RanmaCanada 345]

3 hours ago, Dodgexander said:

Profile 5 is supported by most TVs with Dolby Vision. Only Sony are known to lack it. I don't see how its unreasonable to ask what they plan is. Plex have replied candidly about it here: 

https://forums.plex.tv/t/whats-the-status-of-dolby-vision-atmos-on-plex-re-lg-webos-nvidia-shield-apple-tv/659955/84?u=dodgexander

Also, why the need to be so rude? If you don't have anything useful to add, just don't say anything at all.

you keep badgering about Profile 7 in all your comments, not 5.  You constantly ask about remuxing Profile 7 to Profile 5 (a dual layer to a single layer) which is not currently possible in Emby or Plex and can only be done currently by MakeMKV.  Even the Plex employee says it SHOULD be possible, not it will.  There is also the fact that very little of this is actually documented so the server software won't know if the TV has support for Profile 5 or 7 and the dev team would need to learn how to poll the TV to get that information.  As for me being rude, I'm not the one here being confrontational with the Dev team and getting upset when the answer they give you is not the one you demand. 

Sorry.

[Dodgexander 8]

12 hours ago, RanmaCanada said:

you keep badgering about Profile 7 in all your comments, not 5.  You constantly ask about remuxing Profile 7 to Profile 5 (a dual layer to a single layer) which is not currently possible in Emby or Plex and can only be done currently by MakeMKV.  Even the Plex employee says it SHOULD be possible, not it will.  There is also the fact that very little of this is actually documented so the server software won't know if the TV has support for Profile 5 or 7 and the dev team would need to learn how to poll the TV to get that information.  As for me being rude, I'm not the one here being confrontational with the Dev team and getting upset when the answer they give you is not the one you demand. 

Sorry.

I'm just asking for extra information. I'm not asking about profile 5 being muxed into profile 7, just if emby will support playback of single track dual layer MKV rips like Plex does.

Your post was clearly rude, don't see the need for it at all. All I was doing was asking for a clear answer and what the plan was going forward. I'm not upset, just confused why such simple questions can't be answered. As you'll see from my link to the plex forum there's plenty of discussion going on without any rude comments, including a Plex employee that's explained some useful info on how Dolby Vision works.

You clearly don't have anything useful to add, nor understand the topic. So I have no clue why you even posted.

[RanmaCanada 345]

You apparently don't even remember what you are asking about even with your comments on this page.. You were constantly asking about remuxing a profile 7 to a profile 5, NOT the other way around.  Remuxing a dual layer to a single layer is currently only supported by 1 program, and that support was only added a few months ago.  And as for how DolbyVision works, it is all proprietary and hidden behind massive back doors.  Serious licensing efforts would have to be made.  Since you're too cheap to go beyond a free trial, I highly doubt you would be for paying an increased price for DolbyVision licensing.  

You clearly do not understand anything surrounding this and are not only confused, but feel entitled.  Luke and company have already answered your demand, and you feel that their honest answer was not good enough.  If you want DolbyVision support, rip your own discs with makemkv and stop downloading encodes.  Plain and simple.  

The fact you think that because Android doesn't give the proper supported profile information is the fault of the Emby Dev Team, just shows how out to lunch you are.

Bye Felicia.

 

[Dodgexander 8]

2 hours ago, RanmaCanada said:

You apparently don't even remember what you are asking about even with your comments on this page.. You were constantly asking about remuxing a profile 7 to a profile 5, NOT the other way around.  Remuxing a dual layer to a single layer is currently only supported by 1 program, and that support was only added a few months ago.  And as for how DolbyVision works, it is all proprietary and hidden behind massive back doors.  Serious licensing efforts would have to be made.  Since you're too cheap to go beyond a free trial, I highly doubt you would be for paying an increased price for DolbyVision licensing.  

You clearly do not understand anything surrounding this and are not only confused, but feel entitled.  Luke and company have already answered your demand, and you feel that their honest answer was not good enough.  If you want DolbyVision support, rip your own discs with makemkv and stop downloading encodes.  Plain and simple.  

The fact you think that because Android doesn't give the proper supported profile information is the fault of the Emby Dev Team, just shows how out to lunch you are.

Bye Felicia.

 

So do you have anything useful to add, or is it just more drivel? Still looking for an answer to my questions. I'm glad emby employees aren't as rude as you, I'd doubt they'd have any custom if they were.

I thought this thread would start some useful discussion, but instead its resorted in stupid, immature attacks by you. As I said, if you having nothing good or useful to say, don't say anything at all.

[sooty234 266]

Dolby Vision is very complicated. Made so by Dolby's licensing. The metadata is closed spec, so it can't simply be utilized. I know of a few people that are trying to reverse engineer it. But that will take time. Unless a software decoder is used that can be integrated into the display swapchain, then the hardware has to support all its variants to be able to play them. The entire chain needs to support it. The player, the device the player is on and of course the display. With the need to pay for the license, most hardware won't support DV at all. So when referencing as system like Emby, with all the various hardware that a user has, along with what player is in the app, The variables to answer your question make this very expansive. And if Emby were to pay for the license, it would mostly be a waste of money, as it couldn't be used on many things. Though it could potentially be used for server tone mapping. But as HDR10 tone mapping isn't applied yet, DV tone mapping much further away, as it would still need to be reverse engineered. I would encourage people to mux HDR10+ in with their DV stuff, as that has greater support than DV 7 or 8.1. And you really won't notice the difference. 

[RanmaCanada 345]

3 hours ago, sooty234 said:

Dolby Vision is very complicated. Made so by Dolby's licensing. The metadata is closed spec, so it can't simply be utilized. I know of a few people that are trying to reverse engineer it. But that will take time. Unless a software decoder is used that can be integrated into the display swapchain, then the hardware has to support all its variants to be able to play them. The entire chain needs to support it. The player, the device the player is on and of course the display. With the need to pay for the license, most hardware won't support DV at all. So when referencing as system like Emby, with all the various hardware that a user has, along with what player is in the app, The variables to answer your question make this very expansive. And if Emby were to pay for the license, it would mostly be a waste of money, as it couldn't be used on many things. Though it could potentially be used for server tone mapping. But as HDR10 tone mapping isn't applied yet, DV tone mapping much further away, as it would still need to be reverse engineered. I would encourage people to mux HDR10+ in with their DV stuff, as that has greater support than DV 7 or 8.1. And you really won't notice the difference. 

To jump on that, DolbyVision tone mapping would be incredibly difficult as DolbyVision changes with every scene, sometimes every frame, it is not just one flat level throughout the entire episode or movie like HDR is, it is constantly changing and tone mapping on supported TVs is handled by a specialized chip.  The amount of processing that would be required to do that would be massive, if the encrypted metadata stream can not be properly decoded and read.  Currently Emby does not support transcoding a stream from HEVC to HEVC and as you mentioned, it currently doesn't even support HDR tonemapping when converting to H.264.  As for encoding to DolbyVision, that is proprietary software, and Luke and company can't just get their hands on it and package it in with Emby.  It is fairly obvious that OP has no clue about this and is just throwing a temper tantrum because they did not get the answer they wanted from the Dev Team and just wanted to have smoke blown up their butt like what happened on the plex forums.    

[sooty234 266]

Yes, it's dynamic metadata, so is HDR10+. DV tone mapping is being worked on by others.

If you read through this thread, there is lots of technical data and discussion, with links to ongoing projects and patents.

https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/issues/7326 

Also, HDR10+ support is being integrated into ffmpeg.

https://patchwork.ffmpeg.org/project/ffmpeg/patch/20201013235345.2609036-1-izadi@google.com/

Lot's of progress is being made.

[sooty234 266]

And Luke just announced HDR tone mapping is on its way!

3 hours ago, Luke said:

HDR Tone mapping when transcoding will be in Emby Server 4.6. Stay tuned to the beta channel over the next week if you'd like to help test.

 

[Dodgexander 8]

https://forums.plex.tv/t/whats-the-status-of-dolby-vision-atmos-on-plex-re-lg-webos-nvidia-shield-apple-tv/659955/135

I guess the same limitations apply, but at least they are candid and open with questions. There's some useful discussion going on there too.

tltr version is they plan to support it where possible, but its entirely limited by the playback device, and there's no way to determine the connected display device either. I guess emby won't change their approach, but I read in another topic here that they believe Plex is incorrectly passing Dolby Vision when it shouldn't be.

[Luke 37096]

Quote

they plan to support it where possible, but its entirely limited by the playback device, and there's no way to determine the connected display device either.

That is exactly our approach. We are both exoplayer on android. They have implemented it in exactly the same way that we have.

[FrostByte 5052]

The current Android TV beta app can detect if DV and HLG is supported down the chain to the display.  If not, then the DV layer is now stripped from profile 7 and HDR10 is passed.  My Samsung could discard the DV layer automatically by itself, but some people had TVs which couldn't and got only a black screen before when playing DV profile 7.  So that's a plus for them

Other than that, I don't believe there is any manipulation of DV content atm.  I'm sure things can always improve though

My only issue right now is DV profile 5 which will need some sort of tone mapping, or something because I get a green tint 

[sooty234 266]

My advice is to avoid DV media in your libraries, unless you have the HDR10(+) to fall back on. Allowing a media player to always correctly use either the DV or HDR10 layer if remuxed together, is precarious. If you must have DV, separate if from the HDR10 and have both. DV is only best when using streaming media like Netflix etc. Amazon is HDR10 and HDR10+ exclusively, I believe. Dolby is screwing everyone, again. The tech is great, but the implementation is a nightmare.

[Dodgexander 8]

6 minutes ago, sooty234 said:

Dolby is screwing everyone, again. The tech is great, but the implementation is a nightmare

Agreed, I hope HDR10+ gains ground. They are already screwing DTS over with exclusive deals on streaming services. Many TVs aren't supporting DTS audio any more.