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Ninko

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Gilgamesh_48

I've tested that exact scenario and cannot make this happen.

 

Can you tell us more about exactly what items are in this playlist?

 

I thought that, maybe, the fact that I never use playlists might be why I have never seen this problem. But, since you have tested the exact sequence of events, I guess there is no reason for me to test further.

 

I "think" this will be one of those issues where the solution, if is found, will  be one of those "Oh my God" solutions. It is unlikely, it seems, that searching for the solution will yield results but rather the solution will suddenly appear when it is not being searched for.

 

Expect serendipity to rule in this case.

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As I've said before, there may be other scenarios that causes this but here's more detail about one of them.

I have a set of videos in a playlist, not a collection. If you start playing the playlist and decide you want to skip this one, you press the down arrow key to bring up the info display, then select the button to skip to the next program, when the next program starts playing, the problem presents it's self.

 

Thanks to everyone who has looked into this, I do appreciate your time.

 

Thanks

 

Are those the steps to reproduce on the streaming stick+ 3810.. Because lets go there.. I have one of those... I can see if mine does the same thing.

 

 

That also sounds like maybe the OSD shade sticks open and that is what you meant. It is supposed to animate that out of the way but maybe something sticks when it moves to next. Let me check that out on the same exact hardware you use. Maybe it is peculiar to just that model.

Edited by speechles
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@@Ninko I also found out why the loading spinner wasn't spinning on some devices. Any devices that support animations will now properly spin and do their thing. We apologize this wasn't happening before either. This was old legacy code that had some bad logic. We are now correcting that and it will now properly spin for you like every other device model. This means the Roku 2 XD/XS (3050/3100), Roku express (3800/3900), and the Roku streaming stick+ (3810/3910) will now properly spin that loading indicator perfectly. We will even make the loading indicator better (faster spin with a cool zoom in/out effect) as a gift. Thanks for telling us about this problem model of Roku. ^_~

Edited by speechles
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That also sounds like maybe the OSD shade sticks open and that is what you meant. It is supposed to animate that out of the way but maybe something sticks when it moves to next. Let me check that out on the same exact hardware you use. Maybe it is peculiar to just that model.

 

That sounds logical as to what would be happening.  However, that shade is a part of a display group and the entire group is what is animated in and out. Other than some sort of rendering error on the device, I cannot see how ONLY the background could get left behind...

 

Please do see if you can reproduce on that device though.

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I can see what happens now Eric. The damn Roku is running half the cores. When she is severely bottle-necked on RAM and CACHE she will start to garbage collect. The first pieces she garbage collects are ... animations. We will lose the transition effects first when she runs close to running out of RAM. This also has a double effect on Roku streaming sticks because they run at half the cores. So this garbage collection causes this cool "hang effect" where it looks like the app is just stuck. Then control returns and you can move again. You go wow weird. I wonder if they coded this app really poorly. No we did not. The Roku streaming stick is not running all our code all the time. It can arbitrarily decide at any time not to run an animation. This would cause the shade to become stuck open or stuck closed and other random behaviors. This is poor garbage collection causing this in Roku firmware. I can see the poor garbage collection in r2d2_bitmaps where images no longer have reference yet stay in the r2d2_bitmaps forever. It isn't clearing space right. So Roku needs to fix their garbage collection in regard to unreferenced images in RAM and wiping out those references/pointers off the stack. This is what is causing the flashing/blinking on these models is the cache isn't clearing out during garbage collection fully like it should be. This is why restarting the Roku device fixes it. We can use RunGarbageCollector() in the code ourselves to help this wacky device. When we navigate to new scenes we could call this garbage collection before we render. The odd part is that garbage collection at that time should occur anyways and doing it again after it already has may do nothing. Solving the problem on the older devices may be a wild goose chase.

 

according to Roku:

-----

RunGarbageCollector() as Object
 
This function runs the garbage collector. It returns and Associative array with some statistics regarding the garbage collection.
See the Garbage collection section of this manual for more detail. You don't normally need to call this function.
-----
 
I like that you wording. "it returns and associative array". And? They obviously meant "an" but nobody spell checks their stuff. Nobody at the Roku household cares. Also this bit..You "don't normally" need to call this function. Okay. Let's assume we need to call it. When is the not normal time to do it? You normally want to breathe. You don't normally want to not breathe. Why do they use this "you don't normally need to call this function"?  That means you do need it sometimes but they never tell you when... lol. Roku you are so fickle and hold hands but never kiss on the mouth. They just want to be friends. Okay. They push you away, say "not tonight honey", then tell you call them again tomorrow. So fickle and that is fine... lol. Roku documentation is like dating. You never know if it is really telling the truth or just being nice or just plain wrong.
Edited by speechles
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But if an animation wasn't running, wouldn't the entire overlay be left behind...?

 

Have you reproduced the problem?

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Ninko

I've tested that exact scenario and cannot make this happen.

 

Can you tell us more about exactly what items are in this playlist?

The playlist is full of Scooby Doo episodes. It may well occur on other things but you can see it best on animation programs.

 

Thanks

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Ninko

Are those the steps to reproduce on the streaming stick+ 3810.. Because lets go there.. I have one of those... I can see if mine does the same thing.

 

 

That also sounds like maybe the OSD shade sticks open and that is what you meant. It is supposed to animate that out of the way but maybe something sticks when it moves to next. Let me check that out on the same exact hardware you use. Maybe it is peculiar to just that model.

It is yes.

 

Thanks

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Ninko

@@Ninko I also found out why the loading spinner wasn't spinning on some devices. Any devices that support animations will now properly spin and do their thing. We apologize this wasn't happening before either. This was old legacy code that had some bad logic. We are now correcting that and it will now properly spin for you like every other device model. This means the Roku 2 XD/XS (3050/3100), Roku express (3800/3900), and the Roku streaming stick+ (3810/3910) will now properly spin that loading indicator perfectly. We will even make the loading indicator better (faster spin with a cool zoom in/out effect) as a gift. Thanks for telling us about this problem model of Roku. ^_~

Right ok... Not sure I fully understand, but any problem being fixed is great news lol.

 

Thanks

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Ninko

I can see what happens now Eric. The damn Roku is running half the cores. When she is severely bottle-necked on RAM and CACHE she will start to garbage collect. The first pieces she garbage collects are ... animations. We will lose the transition effects first when she runs close to running out of RAM. This also has a double effect on Roku streaming sticks because they run at half the cores. So this garbage collection causes this cool "hang effect" where it looks like the app is just stuck. Then control returns and you can move again. You go wow weird. I wonder if they coded this app really poorly. No we did not. The Roku streaming stick is not running all our code all the time. It can arbitrarily decide at any time not to run an animation. This would cause the shade to become stuck open or stuck closed and other random behaviors. This is poor garbage collection causing this in Roku firmware. I can see the poor garbage collection in r2d2_bitmaps where images no longer have reference yet stay in the r2d2_bitmaps forever. It isn't clearing space right. So Roku needs to fix their garbage collection in regard to unreferenced images in RAM and wiping out those references/pointers off the stack. This is what is causing the flashing/blinking on these models is the cache isn't clearing out during garbage collection fully like it should be. We can use RunGarbageCollector() in the code ourselves to help this wacky device. When we navigate to new scenes we could call this garbage collection before we render. The odd part is that garbage collection at that time should occur anyways and doing it again after it already has may do nothing. Solving the problem on the older devices may be a wild goose chase.

 

according to Roku:

-----

RunGarbageCollector() as Object

 

This function runs the garbage collector. It returns and Associative array with some statistics regarding the garbage collection.

See the Garbage collection section of this manual for more detail. You don't normally need to call this function.

-----

 

I like that you wording. "it returns and associative array". And? They obviously meant "an" but nobody spell checks their stuff. Nobody at the Roku household cares. Also this bit..You "don't normally" need to call this function. Okay. Let's assume we need to call it. When is the not normal time to do it? You normally want to breathe. You don't normally want to not breathe. Why do they use this "you don't normally need to call this function"?  That means you do need it sometimes but they never tell you when... lol. Roku you are so fickle and hold hands but never kiss on the mouth. They just want to be friends. Okay. They push you away, say "not tonight honey", then tell you call them again tomorrow. So fickle and that is fine... lol. Roku documentation is like dating. You never know if it is really telling the truth or just being nice or just plain wrong.

I partly understand what you're saying here, is this something you can fix with your code or is this something only Roku can fix?

 

Thanks to all who has spent time looking at this, I didn't expect it to be such a headache to find, sadly I am known to be awkward lol.

 

Thanks

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I partly understand what you're saying here, is this something you can fix with your code or is this something only Roku can fix?

 

Thanks to all who has spent time looking at this, I didn't expect it to be such a headache to find, sadly I am known to be awkward lol.

 

Thanks

 

Quite the contrary you sir are not the headache. The odd crippling that Roku did to their poor little girl the Roku streaming stick and it's twin the Roku streaming stick+. The 3800 and 3810 to you and me. They crippled these devices. Our animations at any time may not run on these girls if they run out of RAM. Since the garbage collection on these models appears to be poorly done in regards to texture memory and this is where the flashing occurs we may not be able to do much in regards to wiping out the problem. But we can try and shove in some RunGarbageCollector() calls when we detect the app is running on these model numbers. This should make it run garbage collection again which may do nothing. But it might do something. We then are doing something and not just going.. meh. We don't know what to do. I know what causes the issue. I am just unsure if Roku has given us the tools to do anything about it. This is where we can try what we have and throw the kitchen sink at it. But if that doesn't work I am sorry. Roku has crippled the 3800/3810 models and made users who purchased this device suffer in 2019. I apologize on their behalf because I love Roku. But she doesn't love me back... lol. We have a complicated relationship to say the least.. lol

 

But really you need a new Roku device if you intend on sticking with Roku. Roku also has semi-abandoned those models. Roku specifically mentions that the lowest model they actually in-house troubleshoot is the Roku express. Anything produced before the Roku express they nickname "semi-retired" as they do not get specifically tested on for application tests. These semi-retired units include: Roku 1, Roku 2, Roku 3, Roku 4, Roku 2 XD/XS and Roku streaming stick/+ (3800/3810).

 

We have very big plans for animations in the future on Roku and we want you aboard. The 3800 and 3810 are not going to be very nice looking when these new animations and things start to appear The future will be very bright as well. We won't need to wear shades on any screens. The song was wrong. The futures so bright you don't need to wear shades. What if all that dark shade stuff was just gone? The future is bright, colorful, and dances/moves...  ^_^

Edited by speechles
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Ninko

@@speechles The reason I picked the streaming stick+ was because it seemed better in spec, for example it can play 4K. Why would they discontinue their higher power model over the lower powered Roku express?

 

Thanks

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Gilgamesh_48
...

We have very big plans for animations in the future on Roku and we want you aboard. The 3800 and 3810 are not going to be very nice looking when these new animations and things start to appear The future will be very bright as well. We won't need to wear shades on any screens. The song was wrong. The futures so bright you don't need to wear shades. What if all that dark shade stuff was just gone? The future is bright, colorful, and dances/moves...  ^_^

 

That sounds like it will be very appealing to my granddaughters (13 and 11) but for us older folks the only thing that really matters is functionality. In fact a LOT of us older folks like a nice steady background without much if any "animation." I find a lot of non-necessary animation added to a screen to be little more than a distraction and that distraction is not helpful to the main purpose of any media system: To find and play media.

 

I would hope two things:

1 - The animations are subdued enough to not be distracting to the real job of simply finding and playing media. It should not get in the way of that ability.

2 - Any animations that are visible enough to be a distraction at all can be turned off. Also remember that for a number of people many animations can actually cause a feeling much like seasickness and you do not want your customers being made sick by the client software.

 

I just want that functionality never gets sacrificed for simply making the interface pretty. Producing an app that places appearance ahead of functionality is always a mistake in the long run.

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@@speechles The reason I picked the streaming stick+ was because it seemed better in spec, for example it can play 4K. Why would they discontinue their higher power model over the lower powered Roku express?

 

Thanks

 

The 3810 I have cannot run complex animation parallels or patterns in sync/timing without hang/freeze. Because it lacks the CPU cores all enabled and only has 2 task threads possible instead of 4. This creates a bottle neck when 2 animations run simultaneously. 1 stops while the other works if data must be loaded in the background which is when most animations run. Think loading spinner as an animation. When data is fetched she spins. When other things move they must now stop to allow that to spin. If multiple loading spinners all spin on the same screen. Same tasker can do this. But multiple different parallel animations will suffer. This makes it harder to be elaborately creative on that device.

 

What if the background was moving and zooming and doing stuff as other things moved on top. Then the spinner spins atop this. And normally you can get 3 animations deep moving at once before you hit this limit. Now you get 1 on the 3800 and 3810. I don't know why they turn off the other 2 cores. Maybe a future firmware update will turn them on. Maybe it is for a different reason. I do know the device keeps a separate space for things known as "swap space" that normally most Roku keep on an SD card slot. These have that enabled by default for some reason so must have something emulated in that slot on that device. Those stick don't have SD cards but have the swap space available. It does this to allow you to have more apps installed. So Roku is using this older stick technology to work with the future instead of just design it for the future. This is why the antenna is now "in the cable" and other weird things about this stick.

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Gilgamesh_48

@@speechles The reason I picked the streaming stick+ was because it seemed better in spec, for example it can play 4K. Why would they discontinue their higher power model over the lower powered Roku express?

 

Thanks

 

Actually I think that Roku wants to push the Ultra (or whatever directly replaces it) over everything else. I think they are discovering that "stick" type devices are simply too unreliable for reliable streaming in many environments. Due to various unreliabilities I have had to abandon all the stick devices I have. I have a Roku stick and a Fire stick and a Fire 4k stick and they are all comfortably resting in a drawer. I have even resurrected my original Fire TV box and it out preforms all the sticks.

 

I understand the desirability of limiting clutter but, for me, the sticks just do not work well enough to make it worthwhile.

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That sounds like it will be very appealing to my granddaughters (13 and 11) but for us older folks the only thing that really matters is functionality. In fact a LOT of us older folks like a nice steady background without much if any "animation." I find a lot of non-necessary animation added to a screen to be little more than a distraction and that distraction is not helpful to the main purpose of any media system: To find and play media.

 

I would hope two things:

1 - The animations are subdued enough to not be distracting to the real job of simply finding and playing media. It should not get in the way of that ability.

2 - Any animations that are visible enough to be a distraction at all can be turned off. Also remember that for a number of people many animations can actually cause a feeling much like seasickness and you do not want your customers being made sick by the client software.

 

I just want that functionality never gets sacrificed for simply making the interface pretty. Producing an app that places appearance ahead of functionality is always a mistake in the long run.

 

I was thinking the animations might also be a perk. There are people who pay for premiere that never use LiveTV on the Roku. They may not use cover art. What other benefit do they get? What if this animation (which does cost to develop) were tied to that? I have thought of how to keep the cost to benefit ratio higher for users who are on premiere. Those who are not would also have ways to get animations enabled.

 

I understand entirely. The backdrop movement is work-in-progress may never see the light of day, eperiment. But the proof-of-concept does work. It is functional. It does look and work exactly as designed and runs all the animations layered over each other perfectly with no breaking. I can even run complex movement, scale, perspective changes while doing full opacity magic. This means we can overlay throw-by animations and fly-bys and anything the mind can think.

 

If you can tell me how the "effect" should look I can design it on the Roku to match exactly what you want. I am now trying out "video game" style presentations and effects to dramatically decrease the "bounce rate" people do on detail screens. They just press play too fast. What if instead if on a detail screen the longer you sit more things happen and dance and effects occur. The longer you wait this escalates in effects until you get this like the fourth of July they call it the "grand finale" effect. Once you sit long enough you see this. That decreases the "bounce rate" from detail screens to play pressing as users see this and go wait.. don't press play yet.. what else happens?

 

Once you see them all you've seen them all. But this is also when other people are over you can repeat the awesome. Show them. This helps to give more on each screen that you may initially think is on that detail screen. Hidden elements. Easter eggs so to speak. You only see them momentarily if you blink you may miss them. You also only see them at certain intervals. You may not see them every single time.

 

Small tricks I've learned since starting this project with Emby where I feel confident we can mix video game style elements into our media presentations and give more WOW factor and increase the time people spend in app interacting with our UI in a fun and interesting way. Where the UI itself is almost like a video game if it makes things slide around and bounce and etc. This would of course be opt-in and 100% optional. Once discovered users can use this for their children, themselves, or however they want. Your media you way.

 

Once again these are just ideas. Nothing concrete. Each and every idea has to pass the Emby universe test and pass. If it doesn't pass the test it might not make the grade. But it is nice to experiment and see possible futures. More color would be nice. No backdrop shade and edge-to-edge backdrop would be nice. Maybe some spotlight drop shadows and no more gradients? maybe?

 

The future has lots of possibilities and Emby is the tip of the spear.

Edited by speechles
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Gilgamesh_48

@@speechles I understand what you saying and even some of what you are trying to do. However I want to interject that animations are distracting to a numb3er of folks, particularly us older folks.

 

I like for the backgrounds and foregrounds to simply be pretty and fairly static. To me movement on the screen is not helpful but rather it is a distraction.

 

I also do not use "live TV" at all. My live TV is from "Sling" mainly because I receive virtually zero signal from anywhere around me.

 

I do not play video games mainly because I dislike the animations and I receive no enjoyment from the mostly mindless games.

 

I do not think that others, that may well like all the animations, should be denied them by me or my desires I just request the they be able to be turned off for those of us that do not wish to see them or even find them distracting. I want a nice solid interface with no distraction on the screen.

 

It sounds like the current Roku environment allows for a lot of fancy things but I think the question has gone from "Can we do this?" to "Should we do this?" That is a question the too often in both science and software development gets ignored and by that you end up with software  or devices or developments that do more harm than good or they loose functionality for the sake of prettiness.

 

It is your app, not mine, so you can do as you please but I would council that the interface, like the code, should always be governed by the KISS principal and you should not get carried away by what is possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that the above does not sound too negative but I just wanted to express my concerns over going too far in the "pretty" direction.

Edited by Gilgamesh_48
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I do not think that others, that may well like all the animations, should be denied them by me or my desires I just request the they be able to be turned off for those of us that do not wish to see them or even find them distracting. I want a nice solid interface with no distraction on the screen.

 

It sounds like the current Roku environment allows for a lot of fancy things but I think the question has gone from "Can we do this?" to "Should we do this?" That is a question the too often in both science and software development gets ignored and by that you end up with software  or devices or developments that do more harm than good or they loose functionality for the sake of prettiness.

 

It is your app, not mine, so you can do as you please but I would council that the interface, like the code, should always be governed by the KISS principal and you should not get carried away by what is possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope that the above does not sound too negative but I just wanted to express my concerns over going too far in the "pretty" direction.

 

On those points I agree. It will be opt-in. To get there requires doing something or things won't move. So that part we are clear and think alike.

 

It isn't "can we" or "should we". It is if we want to "how would we".

 

Once you know how to do something you can use it. So to learn how to do animation techniques you need some examples. So I came up with some well thought-out examples. Execution might be a little off because after all these are examples. I did not put my heart and soul into them because these are examples. They are meant to demonstrate what can be. Not an outright execution of how I would do this if I held the keys.

 

This is just as proof-of-concept so I can show the team ideas and how things can get better. These are also inevitable. The only way to go is up. The only way to go up is to gain movement and animations. Unfortunately this is where you get off the ride. But that is okay. We have several things in other areas too that you will and already do like. So we are on the right path. I just want users to know that along with consistency we can let users have fun.

 

There is a need for certain users (children, young at heart, etc) to have fun during this media presentation stuff. I already went there is what I want you to know. We already can be there. It just needs sanding off the rough-edges as being so close to all this (so close to the flame) and created it. I can only admire it. To cast criticism at it would be like hitting my child. So I need the other guys(..and girls too) to give me clues on where they hate this future version and why and where so we can tailor this to fit. Because it does work it looks charming.

 

Some people just go, "Charm less! Function more!". Well, we have both. We do. Both charm and function. I never tell you lies. Emby doesn't lie. :)

Edited by speechles
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denz

I would prefer if we can remove the white square around selection and have icons grow and shink as you scroll like in other apps if that is possible. 

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I would prefer if we can remove the white square around selection and have icons grow and shink as you scroll like in other apps if that is possible. 

 

Interesting.. You want that scale effect? I am fixing spots on images where scale isn't being used to add scale. This is required so we have the opportunity to grow/shrink and rotate/spin things in the future when we decide to animate them. Scale is required for that grow/shrink effect. I can see what I can do for the focus item to have a bigger scale than the rest. That shouldn't be too difficult and even animate the effect as you move focus so the old shrinks and the new grows both smoothly and evenly. That seems doable with what I know about Roku now. Not promising anything but I will definitely look into making this happen.

 

Also we do use scale already to size the entire presentation to your display resolution. But we can use scale again in the children scenes to then do animation techniques like DVD/Bluray menus do minus the little movie playing in the background. I hate that movie playing as it eats bandwidth. So I mainly mean motion backdrops, dancing wiggling artwork, and visual studio effects that breeze in and do fly-bys or hold-over-fade-in-fade-outs. Things that do not chew bandwidth to add to the presentation. It is a giant work-in-progress. Like a Willy-Wonka wonderland of movement. Everything moves that is an image. Everything will dance.. One day.. lol

 

I like animation effects and it gives me a reason to use scale. I love scale. Having scale means animation and zooming in/out is possible. Then comes scalerotationcenter and I can even turn/rotate images and do a "wiggle jiggle" which is to turn/tilt a bit left, then do the same thing to the right, then spin back to center. Do this only when a user has idled on a poster for a certain period. The image becomes bored you just left focus on it so it dances. It might even do a slight grow and shrink on top. I never know what I will do until I do it because it adds to the surprise. I like to surprise myself and others. Are you surprised? This "wiggle jiggle" dance would be so you can know exactly where you are on the row or grid as it does this little rotation to the left and little then the right then back to center. I already use the "wiggle jiggle" animation right now as a "dance routine" for the album arts during music playing.

 

Once you see what I mean by "routines" you understand. These are basically choreographed movements like a gymnast. You tell the image okay this time spin 3 times right, then grow 1.2x scale. wait half a second then grow another 1.2 and spin left.. now wait another half second.. then spin back to center and shrink back. All of this is basically done to time. You construct these animations all according to time. So it is rather easy to choreograph a really good presentation this way and shock people with how well done it can be. It runs on clock works entirely. It amazes me how easily it works which is why I want to do it.. lol. It is like being 12 and 13 again and writing code for programming magazines and making a few bucks here and there. Those magazines people typed in code by hand from on their tandy and commodores. Yep read and data statements for any ASM and the rest in BASIC. Writing for Roku feels like this at times especially with these animations. This experience I have from long ago pays back dividends big time because it is refreshing being able to call this work. This is so fun how can it be work? I mean right? This is how I know Emby is the best and will be eventually. It is inevitable. I can see the future. :)

 

There is so much future stuff you aren't seeing yet...so much.. One day will get here when all this magical stuff will get the light of day it deserves. But I will definitely start to look at scale the focused item up with an animation and scale the last focused back down. That should put us more in-line with AndroidTV too as I think it does this grow/shrink scale effect on the focused item too.

Edited by speechles
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denz

I certainly do like the grow/ shrink that the other apps use. Example from emby theater. 

 

5d4cf7a3d5c18_Capture.jpg

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I certainly do like the grow/ shrink that the other apps use. Example from emby theater. 

 

5d4cf7a3d5c18_Capture.jpg

 

We tried replicating that originally on this platform and it simply caused way too many problems so we don't really want to go back there.

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We tried replicating that originally on this platform and it simply caused way too many problems so we don't really want to go back there.

 

I can add it to our tracker to investigate but I am with you on this. When I started to investigate doing this I notice we will have to use fields and observers to transfer states from one interface to the next. This will certainly add lag. This will mean lag between focus moving to the item and it starting to grow and the old item starting to shrink.

 

Like Eric said it was tried before and failed gloriously. Well not failed but it was hard to code, sort of clumsy in operation, and required lots of hand holding to keep all the clock works from falling apart. Now we can go there again but it will not be a pretty show. We can eventually go there and I will add this to the tracker to get there. But just saying please don't hold your breath. We will put together some proof-of-concepts to see if we can ever do this properly but I would not hold out hope this may ever see the light of day. I hope you understand.

 

 

Reference: Issue #565: [FocusIndicator] Frame vs grow/shrink

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Ninko

Any further thoughts on if you think the original problem here can be fixed, I'm sure you can imagine it's very annoying.

 

Thanks

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