metsuke 27 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I think @@metsuke's point is that he likes open source for the sake of open source. Nothing wrong with that. Can totally respect the opinion. I'm not sure I understand why you and others think the effects of what we are discussing are theoretical. I viewed just about every commit in github so my own security/information sake. Is that not practical? I reviewed the code for logging so I could understand how to manipulate it or create a shim for my own purposes. I see these as examples of real, practical benefits that I regularly act on with many projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perplexed 25 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 (edited) why are people always trying to shut this topic down? Since you quoted me... that is not even remotely what I meant, @. All I said is I am going to bow out of a one-on-one conversation with one individual about a particular aspect of this discussion. There is no way I was or am trying to shut this entire topic down. Edited January 30, 2019 by Perplexed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAlGaInTl 279 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Some good points. But what does it change? why are people always trying to shut this topic down? os matters to me, I respect Team Emby and their decision to go closed source but I would still prefer it to be open. apart from the reasons I stated earlier in this thread another one of my main reasons is control and direction and termination, let me explain some scenarios. At the moment I like the product/project, it has a feature set that I am happy with and is getting better with every release, mostly, but that could change over time. Scenario 1 What happens if Team Emby decides to add paid channels, i.e. a built in media source that requires micro transaction to watch movies or TV shows from a provider that Emby now comes bundled with. Searches return links to this new channel and if you select one of the items you are asked for payment or sent to an external site for a subscription setup. To me this is a deal breaker and I would bail, now the project is closed I have no choice to grab the code and build me a version without this "feature" I have lost the ability and control to do this with a closed source. You could stop paying for Emby, or stop upgrading the current version. Of course it is also possible, albeit unlikely, they they could also force an upgrade by some server-side requirement, essentially forcing a user. But history has shown that's unlikely. You haven't lost the ability to fork and and continue the project. You can still do that. You just have to go back prior to the closing of the source, just as Jellyfin did. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. Scenario 2 Luke gets hit by a bus, yes the old hit by a bus scenario, or gets sick, or the whole Emby Team gets hit by a meteor or eaten by a shark, it could happen... Anyway something happens to Luke, Team Luke, Team Emby etc, what then? The project folds, stagnates or just grinds to a halt? As a user what then? No source, no control, no project. With OS people can step up, continue on. Longevity is guaranteed, the project will outlive the original host. Also extremely unlikely. That being said, most businesses have a plan. I'm not sure what Emby's is, or if they have one. Not sure if they have set up a corporation, LLC, or other. Maybe somebody from the team can answer that. Scenario 3 SELL OUT!!!! I know people will say never but I have seen it happen very often, you build up a project/business and at some point years down the track you get made an offer that makes your eyes water, you think about paying off the house and buying that new car. Some company throws money at your and you hand over the keys, one example of this: https://www.cnet.com/news/yahoo-buys-meedio/ Meedio was cool, I used it as my main TV interface, it had a dedicated dev and lots of momentum. Then it was dead. With an OS project the user is a little more protected as a buyer know what they are getting and if they decide to close source you can for from the last OS version just like Jellyfin has. Yes. It's a possibility. I fear that Plex is a LOT closer to that point than Emby. It's not out of the question though. But just as you mentioned (as I did for Scenario 1) You can still fork. Just before it went closed source. My point is OS project tend to have more protection against companies taking the product in a direction the user base does not want. Yes it does. But businesses also are acutely aware of what users want (or at least what they "think" users want) and drive improvement based on that. If they make a mistake, it can hit them in the pocketbook. They adjust as they can. If FOSS is truly a driving factor for a user, then by all means, they should consider the OSS alternatives, free or otherwise. Again, there's nothing wrong with that. Now there is a new fork to follow and that's good for everyone. Jellyfin could go on to be the next big thing, or at the very least, it could serve to keep Emby honest (not that I think they have any ill intentions at the moment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) I would say that if you were buying this because it was open source, you would have looked at and seen Github and noted that the source available had been limited for the community well before, at a minimum, you created an account on this forum. And if you created your account account at a similar time you bought a premiere subscription, none of the "open source" comments are new ones. Similar comments apply in my opinion to @. I've been doing both. First, arguing my theoretical feelings towards the essence of this thread as defined by the topic title, by giving examples as to the empirical consequences such as the amount of bad press we encounter when googling Emby, and trying to illustrate how they were caused and what might remedy them in my misguided assumption that some people might be interested in that. And second, my concrete non-theoretical personal dissatisfaction when a feature I used was suddenly rendered broken after an unannounced feature update turned it into a premiere feature. First giveth then taketh away is not how you make friends stay. Paying clients won't mind, but potential future paying clients have one more reason to look elsewhere before their time becomes more valuable than their money. I'm arguing ( @@ebr ) that closing their commercial-grade software is their good right and can be a good thing. However, if they had made a modular approach that kept a fully working FOSS version intact, or create a new product line under a different name separate from the open source one, or have a closed Emby Pro next to an open Emby CE (Community Edition) under their belt, the rift in the community would not have happened, and the CE users would have a positive attitude towards the name "Emby" and would consequently be potential future paying clients in stead of being people expressing their negative feelings about the product on different forums and creating their own fork. JellyFin is based on discontent, and is essentially what LibreOffice is to OpenOffice. Or MariaDB to MySQL. Irregardless of whether one believes the authors have the time and skills to see it through. At some point there just might emerge new contributors with passion and an unknown skillset who are unaware of any history or drama, and they just want to contribute to the only FOSS project out there. It could have been under Emby's belt, but now it will be a competitor. It's this choice that caused and causes bad press. Disagreeing doesn't fix that. Emby CE might bring in more future paying clients, but it will be good for marketing. As for my personal example, the hardware transcoding, after reading some release notes I understand that the new transcoding code is faster and more efficient. In this instance, the new and improved transcoding could be a Emby Pro feature, while the less efficient hardware transcoding - but better than software transcoding nontheless - could have been an Emby-CE feature. There would not have been any "taketh away". Judging from the situation as it is, the discontent on other forums like Reddit, and the lack of acknowledgement or even consideration for parts of ideas proposed in this topic, it does indeed seem like it's too late, e.g. a dead horse. But I guess it all depends on whether Emby is looking 1 year ahead, or 10 years ahead, when considering if it's worth looking into some of the thoughts raised. Ask Microsoft if it's good or bad to have those pesky open source developers on your side. They paid 7.5 billion dollars for Github. Edited January 31, 2019 by Redsandro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chyron 225 Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 the amount of bad press we encounter when googling Emby Bad press? What bad press? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14925 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 And second, my concrete non-theoretical personal dissatisfaction when a feature I used was suddenly rendered broken after an unannounced feature update turned it into a premiere feature. Just as a point of fact, we did pre-announce this (six weeks prior to release) to try and give people some warning. Exciting Additions Coming Soon in Emby Server 3.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Bad press? What bad press? I'm not going to dissect my browser history of the past month for you. If you haven't encountered it, then it's probably because you're not interested in Open Source, and do not travel the parts of the internet relevant to those interests. Also, it's not nice to rehash bad press here. This is about moving forward, not about bad mouthing Emby. But some examples if you sincerely haven't heard any negativity, for starters the hostility (by some, but it registers nonetheless) towards anyone raising questions or ideas about Open Source on this forum. Then forums about htpc, where you see a lot of "Emby has been shady the last year or so, that's why I stopped using it." Next the discussions you'll see about Emby not adhering to GPL at the time it still applied, and the outrage when their solution was to simply remove all issues discussing it. Also the plugin developers fed up with unannounced API breakage. Furthermore, reviews like the following: Emby is a pretty cool app and I've been using it for years on my Linux mediaserver. (...) However, I personally do care about open source. As such I can no longer recommend Emby and will instead be moving to Jellyfin. I can't in fairness provide a star rating. The software itself probably deserves a "4/5", but the move to proprietary license, get's a "1/5" from me. -edit- Unless you mean that the word "bad press" is factually incorrect when talking about forums and reviews. That's a technicality but is not relevant to what I am trying to say. Edited January 31, 2019 by Redsandro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Just as a point of fact, we did pre-announce this (six weeks prior to release) to try and give people some warning. Exciting Additions Coming Soon in Emby Server 3.6 You are right and I stand corrected. I missed that because of the automatic updating. It might have to do with not expecting features being removed, so I am not actively seeking release notes for possible feature removals. It doesn't happen often. Generally it's a good and safe practice to enable automatic updates for everything. Also, it's probably the least relevant part of my post. It's like all thoughts go straight to /dev/null, except for the parts where I was factually wrong. Edited January 31, 2019 by Redsandro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebr 14925 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 You are right and I stand corrected. I missed that because of the automatic updating. It might have to do with not expecting features being removed, so I am not actively seeking release notes for possible feature removals. It doesn't happen often. Generally it's a good and safe practice to enable automatic updates for everything. Also, it's probably the least relevant part of my post. It's like all thoughts go straight to /dev/null, except for the parts where I was factually wrong. Sorry, as I stated before, I have said all I need to say on this issue at this time. I simply wanted to correct that statement for the casual reader. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speechles 1920 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 It's like all thoughts go straight to /dev/null, except for the parts where I was factually wrong. You lost all credibility when you made this statement. When people make accusations that are wrong expect correction. On your other points you are just beating your own drum. One man band. We get your point but please don't take exception that it means you can disparage those who find errors in the way you communicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 You lost all credibility when you made this statement. you are just beating your own drum. One man band. You will do anything to keep a hostile environment and steer any thought away from what matters to some. All meta-discussion and zero intro- or retrospective thought. Have fun chasing people away. I'm done. You win. Good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speechles 1920 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) You will do anything to keep a hostile environment and steer any thought away from what matters to some. All meta-discussion and zero intro- or retrospective thought. Have fun chasing people away. I'm done. You win. Good job. Hostile? If anything the repeated over and over mantra of yours is akin to brain washing. Chasing away? Perhaps you should say you walked away like what really happened. You saw you were getting very little traction and went about it incorrectly with errors in your conversation. Now you blame me for taking the piss? Please. See it as it really is. You continued to post the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome each time. That is the definition of insanity. Bring some new food to the table next time. We can discuss it like rational people. Instead you want us to listen and you cannot force people to listen. I am sorry the project is no longer open source. What is done is done. To carry on and go into many pages is just as others said, "kicking a dead horse". Edited January 31, 2019 by speechles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie117 56 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 You will do anything to keep a hostile environment and steer any thought away from what matters to some. All meta-discussion and zero intro- or retrospective thought. Have fun chasing people away. I'm done. You win. Good job. This applies to all Emby forum boards really in my experience. The whole discussion about open source has been overly hostile towards people wishing to discuss this change that has yet to be formerly announced or explained by the Emby team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceboy 2494 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 This applies to all Emby forum boards really in my experience. The whole discussion about open source has been overly hostile towards people wishing to discuss this change that has yet to be formerly announced or explained by the Emby team.probably because there’s not that much to discuss. The points for your side have been made and understood, it’s just that 90% of people do not care a jot and 9.9% disagree with you. The discussion is over but you keep trying to have it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdiesel 1114 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I don't really understand what discussions people are hoping to have. Yes there are pros/cons to closed and opensource projects, it has been debated here and elsewhere on the internet to death. If you like the product continue using it, if you don't like the decision made then move to an opensource alternative. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chyron 225 Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) Okay, lets calm down a bit here.If Emby's practices lately have turned some people off from using it, that's unfortunate. My OP was just to say that I personally prefer usability improvements over a desire for open source; also I have encountered several open-source projects that are obviously inferior to a direct commercial competitor that is closed-source; among other reasons. This is my opinion. I just didn't see the need for people to get all up in arms about this, nor the need for a fork in response---especially when the developers of the fork are foul-mouthed, shadily circumvent Emby's paywall, and use their fork to access Emby's proprietary apps. Those things don't sound like respectable practices to me, so their protest of Emby closing code off from them comes across as weak. Again, this is my opinion. At the end of the day, it comes down to what the Emby developers want for their product and their business. I'm fairly certain if enough people asked nicely and adamantly on a routine basis, the devs would perhaps consider taking the time to separate the code. They're not Plex; they're not ignoring you. They just have so many hours in the day, and have to prioritize what to work on. Edited January 31, 2019 by chyron8472 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAlGaInTl 279 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I just didn't see the need for people to get all up in arms about this, nor the need for a fork in response I agree with everything you said except for the bold. I think that is the exact correct response. That's the nature and purpose of the open source licenses to begin with. I also agree that the team that did it could have approached it better, but as has been previously stated, what's done is done. On both sides. Now there are two valid pieces of software moving forward. I'll keep using Emby, but certainly follow Jellyfin as well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie117 56 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) probably because there’s not that much to discuss. The points for your side have been made and understood, it’s just that 90% of people do not care a jot and 9.9% disagree with you. The discussion is over but you keep trying to have it How exactly does that warrant a hostile response though? There’s still plenty to discuss but your side’s hostile attitude and attempt to kill off the discussion before it had even started has probably scared away the few people that did care even a little. Also, this is literally the only active thread on the topic. Does it really bother you that much that pro open source people are posting here to voice their opinion? Finally, the Emby team has made no formal announcement on the topic so we don’t even really know what their intentions are exactly for the long term. That makes it especially important for either side to voice their opinion, because to give credit to the Emby team they do actually listen to user feedback unlike certain other media servers. Edited January 31, 2019 by Charlie117 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speechles 1920 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) There’s still plenty to discuss but your side’s hostile attitude and attempt to kill off the discussion before it had even started has probably scared away the few people that did care even a little. Also, this is literally the only active thread on the topic. Does it really bother you that much that pro open source people are posting here to voice their opinion? Finally, the Emby team has made no formal announcement on the topic so we don’t even really know what their intentions are exactly for the long term. That makes it especially important for either side to voice their opinion, because to give credit to the Emby team they do actually listen to user feedback unlike certain other media servers. I love the use of "hostile attitude" used when an opinion differs from your own. This is spirited debate, nothing is hostile. Please drop the use of that word as it only makes you look pedantic. Instead rise above what you feel is a problem. If your feet are to the fire you run? Oh no, they called me doo doo head.. 8^( *cries* *runs off to a corner of the internet that feels comfortable*. Don't do this. Don't tell us you are leaving as if that is some sort of arrow you can use to slay us. It hurts us not that you go away. It hurts us not that you remain. Please see this as conversation not a biblical discussion. This hasn't happened. People are not hostile. Your making this harder on yourself. You get more bees with honey than you ever will with vinegar. So many pro open source people have replied here? Really? I can count on one hand the number of those who have participated in this thread. I wouldn't call the number "many". I would call it a few. If you cannot tolerate opinions that differ from your own you should really keep those opinions you make to yourself if you can't see our opinion with value as well. There are good points on both sides. No one is attempting to kill off the discussion. I was only mention the "dead horse" as in bring up the open source projects that benefit from being open source. No need to do this over and over to try to elucidate us. It looks like brain washing and only helps to make this discussion more opaque. We need transparency. Friendly debate. Not this sort of thing were people just decide this is the way they want it and damn all who stand in their way. This isn't democracy. You get a voice. You do not get a vote. Edited January 31, 2019 by speechles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perplexed 25 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'm not seeing hostile attitudes either, nor attempts to kill off the discussion. We know the Emby team follows this thread, so they know how "both sides" feel about the matter (for the record, speaking for myself I'm fairly neutral either way as I tried to reason/view things from both "sides"). I don't feel either "side" has been particularly hostile, though some have expressed their own opinion in a stronger tone than others may feel comfortable with, but such is life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie117 56 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I love the use of "hostile attitude" used when an opinion differs from your own. This is spirited debate, nothing is hostile. Please drop the use of that word as it only makes you look pedantic. Instead rise above what you feel is a problem. If your feet are to the fire you run? Oh no, they called me doo doo head.. 8^( *cries* *runs off to a corner of the internet that feels comfortable*. Don't do this. Don't tell us you are leaving as if that is some sort of arrow you can use to slay us. It hurts us not that you go away. It hurts us not that you remain. Please see this as conversation not a biblical discussion. This hasn't happened. People are not hostile. Your making this harder on yourself. You get more bees with honey than you ever will with vinegar. So many pro open source people have replied here? Really? I can count on one hand the number of those who have participated in this thread. I wouldn't call the number "many". I would call it a few. If you cannot tolerate opinions that differ from your own you should really keep those opinions you make to yourself if you can't see our opinion with value as well. There are good points on both sides. No one is attempting to kill off the discussion. I was only mention the "dead horse" as in bring up the open source projects that benefit from being open source. No need to do this over and over to try to elucidate us. It looks like brain washing and only helps to make this discussion more opaque. We need transparency. Friendly debate. Not this sort of thing were people just decide this is the way they want it and damn all who stand in their way. This isn't democracy. You get a voice. You do not get a vote. I agree with your points. Glad we can keep the discussion going then. I’ve also seen several good arguments from both sides and that should really be the goal of this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsuke 27 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 probably because there’s not that much to discuss. The points for your side have been made and understood, it’s just that 90% of people do not care a jot and 9.9% disagree with you. The discussion is over but you keep trying to have it So what I've been trying to drag out is where in that spectrum that you describe, the Emby team stands. This will help with knowing the future direction of the project. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chyron 225 Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 I can count on one hand the number of those who have participated in this thread. 27 people in total have participated. Are you saying 5 or fewer prefer open source? Or are you saying that you have some crazy number of fingers on your right hand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdiesel 1114 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I will be following the Jellyfin project for interests sake to see what direction they decide to go in. I've am even more interested in seeing how the decide to manage the project direction and maintain code contributions moving forward. Some of you may remember the shake up with Kodi a year or two ago where a very outspoken developer bullied other contributors who didn't align with his vision out of the project. They lost all their Android and Windows developers who had been doing great work to make Kodi a great experience on those platforms. When everyone is working in there own interest the overall project interests can be forgotten. Not trying to say that closed source is better just raising a point about project direction and one of the potential drawbacks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsuke 27 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I will be following the Jellyfin project for interests sake to see what direction they decide to go in. I've am even more interested in seeing how the decide to manage the project direction and maintain code contributions moving forward. Some of you may remember the shake up with Kodi a year or two ago where a very outspoken developer bullied other contributors who didn't align with his vision out of the project. They lost all their Android and Windows developers who had been doing great work to make Kodi a great experience on those platforms. When everyone is working in there own interest the overall project interests can be forgotten. Not trying to say that closed source is better just raising a point about project direction and one of the potential drawbacks. Oh there are certainly many ways that many open source projects have turned into cess pools of conflict or pits of inactivity. It happens all the time, and any form of success depends on people to be reasonable. I think that does happen in closed source projects too, but perhaps less often and typically less public =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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