Open Letter to Emby Developers

[Jdiesel 1114]

I wanted to take a few minutes to communicate my feelings on Emby in its current state. First of I’d like to say that I am a long term “MediaBrowser” user going back to the WMC days. I have bounced around from Kodi, Plex, Jriver, MediaPortal, and Emby over the years always ending up back at Kodi. That changed in 2015 when I made the switch to Emby full time. The main reason being Emby Theater with madVR support. This was something nobody else had with the exception Jriver which was severely lacking in many other areas. Moving into 2016 Emby was really doing things right. The server software was solid and stable, new exciting features were being added monthly, and the few apps that were available worked well. Plex must have been very worried at this point as Emby not only caught up but surpassed Plex in many areas.

 

Then 2017 rolled around and things started to change. I started to notice lots of changes to the server and apps with little to no consultation with the users. In many cases features were even removed completely. The apps started to go closed source and longtime contributors disappeared. The “nag screen” seemed to be the tipping point and after that Emby seemed to be taking all stops to lock things down. The move from Mono to .Net Core was used as an opportunity to do so. In my opinion it was rushed and the move brought with it the loss of features and the introduction of new bugs. Plugins were broken and plugin developers gave up. Beta testers were fed up with broken installs and starting over from scratch. When all was said and done Emby effectively became closed source.

 

Moving into 2018 Emby has been a complete disaster for me. I feel like I am now running alpha software and having to deal with system breaking issues again and again. Bugs reported in the beta versions go ignored and pushed into stable builds. Little to no communication on issues other than “we are looking into”, broken apps being pushed out, and shutting out the community (especially long time testers) from proposed changes. Emby in 2018 has really left a sour taste with me.

The following is a list of things Emby needs to fix:

1. Figure out your GPL issues asap. Until this is done a total lack of confidence in the Emby project is lost, this is one of the main reasons Emby was attractive over Plex.
2. Stop trying to be Plex. If you continue try and be Plex you will lose as Plex is better at being Plex. Be your own product and do things the Emby way.
3. Stop trying to dumb down the server software. The people administrating the server and are not dumb, those who are can learn. Don’t take away options and simplify things. There is no single solution that will please everyone so let us choose what works for us.
4. Listen to your beta testers, while you might not agree with them ignoring them will only drive them away. Emby currently lacks beta testing as the stable builds are far from stable.
5. Make your stable builds stable, even if you need to hold them back a bit longer. Also don’t force your standard user to need to use beta builds.
6. Create an environment attractive to plugin developers. Tell current developers well in advance about changes that may break their plugins. Make the full documentation available and keep it up to date. I have seen the frustration of app developers having their plugins broken again and again to server side changes then eventually give up and walk away.
7. Slow down and tackle existing bugs and issues before adding more features. Emby doesn’t need to be on every device and have an app for every system right now. Make sure the ones that are out now work very well.
8. Show us how the app licensing works. We want and have been asking for a way to see how many premiere devices are active for a very long time now.
9. Give premiere users something worth paying for and you won’t need to worry about the freeloaders
10. Be open and transparent with your users, this is what used to set you apart from Plex.

 

 

I really like Emby and want to continue to use it but at its current state it just doesn’t make sense for me anymore. The few benefits it has over Plex are outweighted by the stability issues for me right now. The things that made Emby great; opensource, customization, dev communication, unique features, and stability are no longer an advantage over Plex.

 

After trying so hard to make Emby continue to work for me since January, today is the day that I move my users back over to Plex. I have been trying to solve my issues with https and apps not working since January and my server has become so unstable that my users stopped using it completely because chances are it wasn’t working when they wanted to. I had started up my Plex server at the beginning of the month and have been testing it myself with no issues. Grudgingly I send out an email to my users telling them they will need to sign up for a Plex account and I will add them to their new server. I will continue to periodically test Emby myself to see if things improve and may switch back when the time is right. Until then I will be going with Plex and its own faults.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Jdiesel

[Luke 37247]

HI, I apologize for the frustration. We are actually working on all of these, and yes I agree about slowing down the release periods to foster greater stability. I think we are at a point where we can do that now.

[revengineer 128]

Thank you, @@Jdiesel, for your thoughtful letter. It is well worded and reflects many of my own thoughts.

 

@Luke: I suggest starting with a quarterly release cycle for stable builds, each followed by a maintenance release 2-4 weeks later. Maintenance releases should only fix bugs users discovered in the initial releases and not introduce new features. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by revengineer

[Smitty018210 53]

Thank you, @Jdiesel, I don't want to pile on, but I agree with much of this.

 

I've been using Emby (Media Browser) since the fall of 2010. I like a lot of what has changed about Emby in that time, but I feel like Emby lost its way a bit.

Emby used to be about new inventions, movie backdrops, cover art, new WMC player themes, trailers, etc. Now it seems to be how fast can we get our software onto as many platforms as possible.

 

I remember the excitement about the release of Emby theater v2. Everyone was asking about, and I was checking everyday to see if it had been released. And that was how long ago now? Still no new themes, no new plugins. Just think it took how long to have vertical scrolling and basic filters added. In my humble opinion Emby theater is boring. I looks boring and isn't anywhere near as fun to customize as WMC ways. I've dragged myself kicking and screaming over to theater in the last few months because I know WMC wont be around forever. Other apps I get you can't change the look of the native apps much, but why not theater? I thought that whole point of moving to that kind of coding was to make it easier to change, make themes for, and make more customization possible. If anything it's been way less than before. I don't know why that is. I don't code myself so I don't know is it really hard to do? Is there no one who wants to? What the heck happened to all the guys who made all the themes for WMC? Did they not want to make new themes, get fed up with all the updates, or the seemingly no real focus on theater, drive them away?

 

There are so many subsections to this forum, to get any real info on what is going on is sometimes hard to find. I'm not saying hey tell us whats going on day to day. That would be silly. An update every month? Something like hey guys this what we were working on this month and here is what is on deck for next. I realize this went from a hobby to a real job for some of you, but for most of us this still just a hobby, and will always treat it as such.

 

I am not hating on Emby at all. I love this software! The amount of work you guys have put in is unreal, but I am not sure all that time has been put to good use. Pull back a bit. Focus on making things more stable and add fun and exciting new things (themes, plugins) to the apps we already have.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Smitty018210

[Luke 37247]

I agree it's time to slow down our releases. I'm fully on board. Thanks for the feedback.

[arche 176]

Honestly, I agree with most of the letter. I do honestly think though the features section should be frozen for the moment to just get the server and apps stable before letting users ask for more features as this might distract the dev's (I'm guilty also of asking). I also think that maybe the board needs to be cleaned up and beta testers should be limited in some respects. Having the ability for people to just download a beta version, complain and leave to go somewhere else never seems to fix anything. Personally, should be by invite only to users that can give the appropriate time to testing and giving proper logs to the dev's. I'm not going to any other server software as my users like Emby and so do I. I don't have as many issues with server as I do the apps, but I am also patient. I do agree though, maybe give the features section a time out and get the core of everything else stable first. But only my opinion.

[Luke 37247]

Yes open vs closed betas is always a difficult choice. On the one hand it's great to be as welcoming as possible and allow people to try the test versions.

 

On the other hand, it can wind up hurting you if/when users shape their opinions based on their beta experience.

[arrbee99 1562]

IMHO better to leave beta open. You just get more variety instead of the same (no doubt knowledgeable) testers using the same hardware to do the same stuff.

 

Also don't (instantly) eliminate new stuff if your going to concentrate on stability, cut it back. Fr'instance you've mentioned several times reworking TV 'stuff' and updating Android phone downloaded playback recently and they'll be appearing soon, don't push things back too far if poss. Easy for me to say of course.

[Carlo 4331]

Can always pull a playbook from Plex on this.  Only allow BETA downloads to those who are Emby Premier customers.  This way it should be a more involved/dedicated person who gets to run it and has (hopefully) more involvement with the forum and the project in general.

 

Might also get a few more people signed up for premier as well since some people prefer to run the latest/greatest versions.

 

Luke and company could still post a link or PM for a BETA download with a fix in it to help someone test a bug they discovered.  But mainly this would stop new users from downloading "work in progress" releases, hitting a new bug and abandoning Emby.

 

Just food for thought,

Carlo

[One2Go 98]

I've dragged myself kicking and screaming over to theater in the last few months because I know WMC wont be around forever. Other apps I get you can't change the look of the native apps much, but why not theater? I thought that whole point of moving to that kind of coding was to make it easier to change, make themes for, and make more customization possible. If anything it's been way less than before. I don't know why that is. I don't code myself so I don't know is it really hard to do? Is there no one who wants to? What the heck happened to all the guys who made all the themes for WMC? Did they not want to make new themes, get fed up with all the updates, or the seemingly no real focus on theater, drive them away?

 

There are so many subsections to this forum, to get any real info on what is going on is sometimes hard to find. I'm not saying hey tell us whats going on day to day.

 

The letter does also strike my sentiment, especially the part where features just disappear from one release to the next. Then after an uproar they are promised to be returned, the folder view disappearing just one example.

 

Now to your points Smitty, I have resisted to this day to make the switch to ET as I am very happy with WMC and the themes and apps that are working flawless so far. WMC in my Win 7 HTPC will be around for years to come and I am sure MS will delay the stopping for support of Win 7 as it is very popular still. The one guy with excellent themes Throgsoft made his themes running on Emby from MB 2.6 but has yet to commit to make them available for ET. All those guys who had developed themes for MB 2.6 also have a real life and that takes precedence as this is a hobby for many of us so you have to settle on the client and themes that are available and are to your liking. I made the switch from MB 2.6 to Emby once Throgsoft had finished his adaption of his themes.

 

As far as the forum is concerned I only use just the sections that have to do with Announcements, General/Windows, EMC, Plug-Ins/Themes and General Discussion. I too hope sincerely that the devs get a handle of what has been listed in the letter.

Edited March 27, 2018 by One2Go

[jachin99 82]

I agree with the EMC folks. Media center is where my money is for the time being, which is why I pay for emby. It's almost the last remaining WMC plugin that is still being worked on so I at least give them credit (and graditude and money!!) For that. As long as they support WMC I support them! If they ever stop than we will see

Edited March 28, 2018 by jachin99

[xilex 9]

I see a lot of posts from users who move from Plex and say this is really nice but here's a list of ten things that I want to be added. And some other users who say I want it to behave in this specific way for my purposes because it's the only way I do things. And the dev team acknowledges it but then they'll say did you add it yet, etc.

 

It is probably overwhelming to micromanage all these little customizations to please the crowd. I'm not well versed in software development, but maybe Emby needs to review it's vision and goals for the software. Maybe lockdown new features and fix the bugs at this time. Differentiate between stable release, release candidate, and all the daily betas. I'm personally on a 3.2.x server still because it does what I need it to do, I've seen some crazy bugs with the stable releases, and I don't expect them to add every feature that I would like nor would I ask that of them.

[Andy777 21]

I wanted to take a few minutes to communicate my feelings on Emby in its current state. First of I’d like to say that I am a long term “MediaBrowser” user going back to the WMC days. I have bounced around from Kodi, Plex, Jriver, MediaPortal, and Emby over the years always ending up back at Kodi. That changed in 2015 when I made the switch to Emby full time. The main reason being Emby Theater with madVR support. This was something nobody else had with the exception Jriver which was severely lacking in many other areas. Moving into 2016 Emby was really doing things right. The server software was solid and stable, new exciting features were being added monthly, and the few apps that were available worked well. Plex must have been very worried at this point as Emby not only caught up but surpassed Plex in many areas.

 

Then 2017 rolled around and things started to change. I started to notice lots of changes to the server and apps with little to no consultation with the users. In many cases features were even removed completely. The apps started to go closed source and longtime contributors disappeared. The “nag screen” seemed to be the tipping point and after that Emby seemed to be taking all stops to lock things down. The move from Mono to .Net Core was used as an opportunity to do so. In my opinion it was rushed and the move brought with it the loss of features and the introduction of new bugs. Plugins were broken and plugin developers gave up. Beta testers were fed up with broken installs and starting over from scratch. When all was said and done Emby effectively became closed source.

 

Moving into 2018 Emby has been a complete disaster for me. I feel like I am now running alpha software and having to deal with system breaking issues again and again. Bugs reported in the beta versions go ignored and pushed into stable builds. Little to no communication on issues other than “we are looking into”, broken apps being pushed out, and shutting out the community (especially long time testers) from proposed changes. Emby in 2018 has really left a sour taste with me.

The following is a list of things Emby needs to fix:

• Figure out your GPL issues asap. Until this is done a total lack of confidence in the Emby project is lost, this is one of the main reasons Emby was attractive over Plex.
• Stop trying to be Plex. If you continue try and be Plex you will lose as Plex is better at being Plex. Be your own product and do things the Emby way.
• Stop trying to dumb down the server software. The people administrating the server and are not dumb, those who are can learn. Don’t take away options and simplify things. There is no single solution that will please everyone so let us choose what works for us.
• Listen to your beta testers, while you might not agree with them ignoring them will only drive them away. Emby currently lacks beta testing as the stable builds are far from stable.
• Make your stable builds stable, even if you need to hold them back a bit longer. Also don’t force your standard user to need to use beta builds.
• Create an environment attractive to plugin developers. Tell current developers well in advance about changes that may break their plugins. Make the full documentation available and keep it up to date. I have seen the frustration of app developers having their plugins broken again and again to server side changes then eventually give up and walk away.
• Slow down and tackle existing bugs and issues before adding more features. Emby doesn’t need to be on every device and have an app for every system right now. Make sure the ones that are out now work very well.
• Show us how the app licensing works. We want and have been asking for a way to see how many premiere devices are active for a very long time now.
• Give premiere users something worth paying for and you won’t need to worry about the freeloaders
• Be open and transparent with your users, this is what used to set you apart from Plex.

 

I really like Emby and want to continue to use it but at its current state it just doesn’t make sense for me anymore. The few benefits it has over Plex are outweighted by the stability issues for me right now. The things that made Emby great; opensource, customization, dev communication, unique features, and stability are no longer an advantage over Plex.

 

After trying so hard to make Emby continue to work for me since January, today is the day that I move my users back over to Plex. I have been trying to solve my issues with https and apps not working since January and my server has become so unstable that my users stopped using it completely because chances are it wasn’t working when they wanted to. I had started up my Plex server at the beginning of the month and have been testing it myself with no issues. Grudgingly I send out an email to my users telling them they will need to sign up for a Plex account and I will add them to their new server. I will continue to periodically test Emby myself to see if things improve and may switch back when the time is right. Until then I will be going with Plex and its own faults.

[Andy777 21]

MeeToo. Issues mentioned by Jdiesel have kept me from contributing through the forum.

 

There's no middle ground. You either open source and listen to your users or go closed ( with a loooong warning time to contributers ).

 

For closed paid software of this scale, it's way more than a team under 10 devs can handle (when the o.s. contributers go away).

 

BR,

Andy777

[b0dyr0ck2006 57]

I must also agree with pretty much everything that has been mentioned in this thread. @@Jdiesel has articulated my sentiments much better than I could have. Something I would like to touch on, which I think is the general feel of this thread, Emby is a damn good piece of software but it just falls slightly short of being right. Like a school kid just not quite making the grade. There are lots of features and apps, server side settings, themes and plugins but nothing just works, taking apples mantra. The stable version of the software actually still feels beta and I am having to constantly tweak and bug fix because instead of a patch being released we get an update bringing more problems.

[Luke 37247]

We are working on rectifying that, thanks for the feedback. The next stable release will resolve a number of open issues.

[screwfaze 37]

I must be lucky then because server side emby for me works absolutely perfectly. There used to be some hiccups before but now server and all plugins work great. I will say this though I see new people jumping on and requesting all kinda things and actually getting them while there are features long overdue that I have been waiting for for ages still outstanding. Just my opinion.

[Luke 37247]

I must be lucky then because server side emby for me works absolutely perfectly. There used to be some hiccups before but now server and all plugins work great. I will say this though I see new people jumping on and requesting all kinda things and actually getting them while there are features long overdue that I have been waiting for for ages still outstanding. Just my opinion.

 

Sometimes when something is truly very quick and easy and we think it makes sense, then it might get done soon after requested. That is generally the only time you will see that.

[dcook 266]

I agree with this 100%

 

I even posted last year that Emby Dev's need to slow down make the Server 100% stable and stop adding all these new features that no one wants. 

 

I was criticized at the time and glad to see that @@Luke agrees with what @@Jdiesel said.

 

 

I hope Emby will be come more stable in the future because it has been really bad the past 12 months or so.  And like @@Jdiesel said stop trying to dumb down the server, let the Server Admins manage their servers how they want.

 

 

 

 

 

[Luke 37247]

That's a big reason why we haven't done a stable release in over a month. We are working on as many fixes and improvements to existing features as we possibly can.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

[Dibbes 431]

That's a big reason why we haven't done a stable release in over a month. We are working on as many fixes and improvements to existing features as we possibly can.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Just a thought, but maybe you can do a quarterly poll among you subscribers. Put in 10 features they can vote on and develop the top three (or five or whatever the team is comfortable with) for that month/trimester/quarter/whatever, use an Agile approach to the release of it (i.e. proper bugtracking, no more than x amount of bugs open before starting new feature development, etc. etc.). This will, and give your users a much requested form of a road-map, the users get the feeling you´re listening to them (not saying you don´t listen now, but sometimes answers/posts are less than transparent), and you get some breathing space yourself too...

 

As I said, just a thought, but I agree with the feeling you guys have been taking on too much (and I´m as guilty of requests and the nagging as much as the next person) too quickly and therefore never have the time to finish things properly.

[Skrumpy 3]

Been a long time Premiere member, and I have to say that overall I do enjoy Emby. Echoing what has been said here, I would love to see a few more 'basics' cleaned up and bugs fixed as well, so I'm excited to see the next release that is promised to fix some of these things. Next, I'd like to see more of a focused effort on beautifying everything and creating a "WOW!" inducing factor for end users.

 

For me, the main eyesore is Live TV (via web/android app/theatre) which I find rather unpolished to downright not functional. It takes 20s to load the guide, and a couple of seconds to pull the channel data on scrolling down, that and the visualization makes seeing what is available difficult to impossible, depending on the theme. It's just not user friendly at all and is annoying to navigate.

 

Also, this is a "Media Server", yet I don't feel like the same attention is applied to media other than the traditional TV and Movies. Aside from the Live TV issues, books, audio books, and music support is overwhelmingly underdeveloped.

 

As others have stated, I feel like premiere members would be more than willing to pony up some additional $$ for skins, themes, icon packs, added "bonus" functionality via plug-ins, etc. I want my server to be functional and look awesome while doing it. Right now, I get part of the functionality with very little of the "WOW" factor out of the experience. I feel like some of that basics of that is there (like theme backdrops, theme music, etc) it's just not really fully formed.

 

I feel like there are a ton of potential money generators and incentives for bringing in a larger plug-in development community. Such as a better/dedicated plug-in navigation/feature area. Right now it's more of a chore to go through plug-ins and many have little to no description (or the provided description isn't very descriptive). I have to click-on each and every plug-in to see what it does. Themes/skins could be enabled for purchase directly in the Emby front-end so the end-user could purchase one if they wanted. For example, if my 12 year old niece wants to skin her Emby with Hello Kitty for $3, if one is available, she should be able to.

 

Partner with host providers, to bring better server options to your customers. Dynamic DNS >>> Emby connect. Making it easier and more fun to have your server at emby.billybob.net (or whatever), means more users. I'm getting way off topic here.. but anyways there are a ton of options to bring in more $$ and more development crew.

 

All of that being said, I know how these threads can turn into a bitch-fest of users v developers and I'd like to say that I hope that doesn't happen as the crew here is awesome and very responsive to us users. The amount of effort that goes into making this all work is likely beyond belief. Not least of which is the extensive feed-back response and support provided here on the forums. I for one really appreciate everything, and I'm a believer that all of this is going to come together soon enough.

 

P.s. please give me a reason to throw more money at you guys, I'd gladly toss in a few hundred extra to be able to have add fully functional Live TV/Audio Book/eBook/Music (to the already superb TV/Movie) front-end for my friends & family.

[revengineer 128]

WTF. This post is a plea to slow down development of new features and just get working what's already there. This is not the new thread to dump your desires and feature requests in.

[Skrumpy 3]

WTF. This post is a plea to slow down development of new features and just get working what's already there. This is not the new thread to dump your desires and feature requests in.

 

I assume you're talking to me. In which case I suggest you reread both my post and the OP's post and/or enhance your reading comprehension abilities. I was echoing sentiments from the OP, specifically the numbered items listed below.

 

 

6. Create an environment attractive to plugin developers. Tell current developers well in advance about changes that may break their plugins. Make the full documentation available and keep it up to date. I have seen the frustration of app developers having their plugins broken again and again to server side changes then eventually give up and walk away.

 

9. Give premiere users something worth paying for and you won’t need to worry about the freeloaders

 

 

I was providing a few avenues to create an attractive environment to plugin developers, and also included several items that premiere users (such as myself) would be willing to pay for (as well as increase revenue in general to allow for more developers). All of the original items in the OP's post were part of their list, "things Emby needs to fix:", for which Live TV is a desperately needed fix. It is buggy and terribly implemented for the platforms mentioned. It is ALREADY INCLUDED as a "feature" as are music, ebooks, and audio books. However, their implementation is poor and/or buggy.

 

The OP provided their highlighted and admitted non-comprehensive list and I echoed those statements as well as provided my own sentiments. Again, feel free to keep your nasty, uniformed, and patently incorrect commentary to yourself because it really isn't needed here nor does it foster the inclusive environment that OP was attempting to develop with their initial statement.