About monetization, free features and Emby premiere

[Livslängd 0]

Hello,

 

I am an Emby user, I have been using it for some time, and just like other people, I also noticed the timer before starting any media.

 

I am not here to demand the removal of the timer, nor I am here to support the decision, I am opening this topic because I would like to give some observations about the recent attempts to monetizing Emby.

 

I know that creating a profitable product is difficult and it is not because it is open source. Normally, I would leave this feedback on the already existing topic but I feel that the posts over there became so toxic that I don't want to be mistaken with those kind of responses. And by "those kind of responses" I mean the kind of responses that feel entitled having Emby always for free because it is open source or the ones that jump into an over-supportive crowd of Premium.

 

The new timer that free users are subject to is doubly annoying. It is annoying once because it is on my way of enjoying the core functionality of the product (which is playing videos) and it is annoying twice because it got "introduced" with a version update. It feels strange to have an update that actually goes backward, my very first thought to this was: "To which version I need to revert to? There is no new feature addition that makes up for this regression of functionality".

 

It strikes me as odd that in an attempt to monetize Emby, you are alienating your current user base which is, basically, your potential customers.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the purpose of a paywall over the extra features like: the cinema mode, the Android app, the backup and restore, the easy access, and so on. Those are features that a common Emby user doesn't really need but which add a great value to a great product if the user is willing to pay for them.

 

But putting a timer on the media playback is taking away a feature that was free a few versions ago and start charging for it. And you can't give things away and then take them back. I mean... you can, it is your project... but you can't expect for people to happily give you money for that. Well, maybe you already got some revenue for that but... at what cost?

 

Myself, I am technically capable enough to be able to read, understand and maintain a fork of this project without all of the Emby Premiere stuff. But I don't believe that forking the product in order to strip down the project from the paywall is something that makes sense. I don't want another project, I want the team, the ideas and the effort behind this particular project. That's why I chose Emby over Plex.

 

Business and monetization is not about being right or wrong, it is not about feeling entitled to free stuff or feeling morally obliged to pay for premium, it is about keeping a loyal user base as potential customers and coming up with reasons to convert them to paid user base. The moment your loyal user base starts questioning how they could crack the code to bypass certain restrictions, is the moment you are losing your potential customers and it is the moment your monetization starts to crumble.

 

At the moment, the timer is not a reminder that the users should contribute to the project. It is a reminder that the users are getting a worse product today than they had yesterday. It is a reminder that the users should start looking for something else.

 

And you might think "Yes, that's their loss then. We need some to start taking some profit since this is our main job.". And you are right, you are absolutely right. But again... it's not about being right or wrong. Remind yourself that most of your user base is constituted by ex-Plex users that made the jump to Emby. And if they made the jump once without looking back, they can easily do it again.

 

I am not demanding, threatening or conspiring against Emby or against the team behind the project. I believe you have your reasons to take the decisions you are taking and I am not drawing judgments over them. In the long term, this could be even a good decision, I don't know.

 

Take this as a constructive input. I like Emby, I enjoy the project a lot, I enjoy reading up the git commits on the repository and I enjoy following up on the development. It is quite impressive what you were able to come up with. I hope you are able to sustain it for as long as you can.

 

Best regards.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Livslängd

[maegibbons 1267]

** Yawn **

 

Why do we have to have another thread on this?  it is still being done to death elsewhere.

 

Go and bore people on the Plex forums.  Do not distract the devs here with this tosh. Let them do what they are good at - Making a First Class Product

 

Krs

 

Mark

Edited March 6, 2017 by maegibbons

[Livslängd 0]

(...)

 

I know that creating a profitable product is difficult and it is not because it is open source. Normally, I would leave this feedback on the already existing topic but I feel that the posts over there became so toxic that I don't want to be mistaken with those kind of responses. And by "those kind of responses" I mean the kind of responses that feel entitled having Emby always for free because it is open source or the ones that jump into an over-supportive crowd of Premium.

 

(...)

 

Take this as a constructive input. I like Emby, I enjoy the project a lot, I enjoy reading up the git commits on the repository and I enjoy following up on the development. It is quite impressive what you were able to come up with. I hope you are able to sustain it for as long as you can.

 

(...)

 

maegibbons, I already addressed you in the original post. The questions you ask are already answered.

 

If you feel bored with my post, it is because it is not meant to read by you. In fact, it is not even addressed to you. I avoided using the other thread because I wanted to create a more constructive discussion other than having condescending responses.

[overClocked! 63]

Hello, @@Livslängd.

 

I like the constructive tone of your posts. We need more of this type of even-keeled thinking to be expressed in these forums. Welcome.

 

I've been hoping for someone like you to give their feedback on this topic and this statement stood out to me:

 

...But putting a timer on the media playback is taking away a feature that was free a few versions ago and start charging for it. And you can't give things away and then take them back. I mean... you can, it is your project... but you can't expect for people to happily give you money for that.

The last sentence echoes a sentiment that I share that rings true. That horse has already left the gate. Free features offered now should remain free. What I want to clarify is this: Are you now unable to playback your media at all without first paying? Once the timer countdown completes, are you now unable enjoy your media in the Emby client app of your choice?

 

The new timer that free users are subject to is doubly annoying. It is annoying once because it is on my way of enjoying the core functionality of the product (which is playing videos) and it is annoying twice because it got "introduced" with a version update.

Very true. However annoying does not equate to non-functioning. Can you not still use the product as before? Was anything taken away besides the time taken to display that message?

 

Thanks for the time you put into this.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited March 6, 2017 by overClocked!

[Livslängd 0]

Hi @@overClocked!,

 

Thank you for welcoming my post. I took some time to write this because I really believe that having a good discussion about this matter from the user base, is something the Emby team might benefit of.

 

Many projects fail because of bad attempts to commercialization, it is not something easy to achieve (the most recent example I have in mind is the platform Sandstorm.io: https://sandstorm.io/news/2017-02-06-sandstorm-returning-to-community-roots ).

 

Hello, @@Livslängd.

I like the constructive tone of your posts. We need more of this type of even-keeled thinking to be expressed in these forums. Welcome.

I've been hoping for someone like you to give their feedback on this topic and this statement stood out to me:

The last sentence echoes a sentiment that I share that rings true. That horse has already left the gate. Free features offered now should remain free. What I want to clarify is this: Are you now unable to playback your media at all without first paying? Once the timer countdown completes, are you now unable enjoy your media in the Emby client app of your choice?


Very true. However annoying does not equate to non-functioning. Can you not still use the product as before? Was anything taken away besides the time taken to display that message?

Thanks for the time you put into this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You raise an interesting perspective. After reading your post, I realized that in my original post I mixed UX (User Experience) with program functionality and most people would argue that they are different things (for example: one thing is the video selection; the other thing is video playback).

 

In this case, only the UX was interfered with while the video playback was left untouched. But I consider UX to be a very important part of Emby, I consider it so important that I could say it is one of the greatest features.

 

Emby is a very elegant and a pleasant program to use and this is why we use it. And the timer is there to tell us "Yep, exploring your media nice and easy is a good thing, but now you need to upgrade your subscription".

 

In a way you are right, I didn't lose functionality with the timer but I lost in UX. I can still watch my media but not as cozy as before. And I realize that losing "coziness" might be in the same category of "extra features that the user doesn't really need" I mentioned in the first post... but it is still something that we had before and that was taken from the free subscription.

 

I think it is ok to have annoying restrictions in order to help promote premium subscriptions (although I consider it to be very risky because you might hurt the presentation of your product to newcomers) but "doubly annoying" restrictions is already hurting the product a little bit.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Livslängd

[Spaceboy 2498]

I'm sorry but I cannot get onboard with the argument that the reminder or nag, whatever you want to call it, is alienating potential paying customers. It is alienating those people that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project

[overClocked! 63]

I'm sorry but I cannot get onboard with the argument that the reminder or nag, whatever you want to call it, is alienating potential paying customers. It is alienating those people that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project

And that's all good. Although we've seen many examples of paying customers taking umbrage to the decision to implement the timed pop-up screen, whether or not someone choses to acknowledge it.

 

Someone else's experience is not at the mercy of another's argument.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spaceboy 2498]

But the issue is you are being mislead and the guy here actually admits it in his second post. His issue is that what was once free is not any more. To which my answer is, that's life chap. Suck it up and make your next move

[Bert 49]

I'm sorry but I cannot get onboard with the argument that the reminder or nag, whatever you want to call it, is alienating potential paying customers. It is alienating those people that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project

Agreed... Furthermore the idea that taking away something that used to be free is "dirty pool" is BS. Makemkv is free while in beta (which admittedly seems indefinite) but I fully expect someday it will come out of Beta. Software companies change how they want to make money all the time and this is considered evolving.

 

Competition is good.... If you don't want to pay, you always have the choice to write your own software and start your own business. Make it as good as emby but totally free. I'm sure you will have lots of customers..... I'm less sure you'll be able to eat.

[clarkss12 296]

Agreed... Furthermore the idea that taking away something that used to be free is "dirty pool" is BS. Makemkv is free while in beta (which admittedly seems indefinite) but I fully expect someday it will come out of Beta. Software companies change how they want to make money all the time and this is considered evolving.

 

Competition is good.... If you don't want to pay, you always have the choice to write your own software and start your own business. Make it as good as emby but totally free. I'm sure you will have lots of customers..... I'm less sure you'll be able to eat.

Actually, Makemkv did start charging for the BlueRay rips, ($50).  Guess it was worth it for me, and no complaints.

[Spaceboy 2498]

Actually, Makemkv did start charging for the BlueRay rips, ($50). Guess it was worth it for me, and no complaints.

No they really didn't https://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1053

 

But very generous of you to donate, let's hope it wasn't a scam

[clarkss12 296]

No they really didn't https://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1053

But very generous of you to donate, let's hope it wasn't a scam

Been using makemkv for a long time and have used the renual key a few times. Guess I missed it, or maybe felt it was my moral responsibility to offer my support for something I use.

[Spaceboy 2498]

nothing wrong with that. i find makemkv a weird one tbh, there must be something else going on, surely if he was ever going to release it he's missed the boat. physical disc usage peaked and is on the decrease already

[clarkss12 296]

nothing wrong with that. i find makemkv a weird one tbh, there must be something else going on, surely if he was ever going to release it he's missed the boat. physical disc usage peaked and is on the decrease already

Really??

[Spaceboy 2498]

Sorry but I'm going to do it again

 

You've heard of Netflix, right? http://fortune.com/2016/01/08/blu-ray-struggles-in-the-streaming-age/

[Livslängd 0]

I'm sorry but I cannot get onboard with the argument that the reminder or nag, whatever you want to call it, is alienating potential paying customers. It is alienating those people that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project

 

@@Spaceboy, if you have a free user base on your project, it is because you created that very free user base. You wanted it to exist. It is how you stood out from the competition.

 

And if some of those users continue being free, it is because they don't see legitimate usage for paying for the paid subscription. Free users are not pirates who downloaded a crack from the PirateBay to enjoy your product. The condescending tone of your expression "that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project" makes it look like your are putting legitimate users on the same box as people who crack your subscription model in order to enjoy features without paying for them.

 

With this said, I would like you to reflect on what you said about "It is alienating those people that never had and still do not have any intention to contribute financially to the project" and tell me if this sentence has the smallest portion of logical reasoning in it.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Livslängd

[Livslängd 0]

Agreed... Furthermore the idea that taking away something that used to be free is "dirty pool" is BS. Makemkv is free while in beta (which admittedly seems indefinite) but I fully expect someday it will come out of Beta. Software companies change how they want to make money all the time and this is considered evolving.

 

Competition is good.... If you don't want to pay, you always have the choice to write your own software and start your own business. Make it as good as emby but totally free. I'm sure you will have lots of customers..... I'm less sure you'll be able to eat.

 

@@Bert, it seems to me that you didn't took the effort to read my post. I addressed the exact same thing you are writing about in my first post. Why didn't you read the post before writing yours? Or why did you took the trouble to press reply if you didn't want to participate in the discussion?

 

It wasn't on my intention to start the equivalent of an US rally in which people would blindly echo sentiments without even listening or thinking before saying anything.

 

Also, I know nothing of MakeMKV and I am not sure why it was even mentioned in this topic. It is not even paid software.

[Livslängd 0]

But the issue is you are being mislead and the guy here actually admits it in his second post. His issue is that what was once free is not any more. To which my answer is, that's life chap. Suck it up and make your next move

 

Just like the other two guys @@Spaceboy, it feels that you also didn't even take the trouble of reading the post.

 

 

(...)

 

Business and monetization is not about being right or wrong, it is not about feeling entitled to free stuff or feeling morally obliged to pay for premium, it is about keeping a loyal user base as potential customers and coming up with reasons to convert them to paid user base. The moment your loyal user base starts questioning how they could crack the code to bypass certain restrictions, is the moment you are losing your potential customers and it is the moment your monetization starts to crumble.

 

(...)

 

Can you guys keep the shallow responses to yourselves please? They don't add anything to the conversation.

[clarkss12 296]

Sorry but I'm going to do it again

 

You've heard of Netflix, right? http://fortune.com/2016/01/08/blu-ray-struggles-in-the-streaming-age/

Interesting, if your media consumption is from streaming, why are you on this site????

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrMMrX_Jvp8&t=68s

Edited March 7, 2017 by clarkss12

[overClocked! 63]

Many projects fail because of bad attempts to commercialization, it is not something easy to achieve (the most recent example I have in mind is the platform Sandstorm.io: https://sandstorm.io/news/2017-02-06-sandstorm-returning-to-community-roots ).

That's true. The same can be said of open source projects that attempt to remain free without gaining enough financial support to continue moving it forward. My example of this is Remote Potato. It was a brilliant a companion software to Windows Media Center to allow streaming your media and provided remote DVR scheduling and playback. But it was developed and maintained by a single hobbyist, who eventually left it all behind because the financial strain (donations only) and time required to keeping everything going became too much. He left the project for someone else to pick up, and it evaporated. While his legacy code still works fine, no new development of note has taken place and the thing has pretty much died on the vine. It would be a shame for the same to happen to Emby, a product that has sprouted and evolved so much in such a short time. It's no longer a hobby project whose initial focus was just a Windows Media Center plug-in. Many users across all platforms have come to depend on it, and love it. Not everyone will.

 

I think it is ok to have annoying restrictions in order to help promote premium subscriptions (although I consider it to be very risky because you might hurt the presentation of your product to newcomers) but "doubly annoying" restrictions is already hurting the product a little bit.

How does one quantify that, though? Only the Emby staff privy to the numbers know for sure the impact beyond a handful of people that log into the support community forums to voice their displeasure. We users only see this part of it.

 

Like you said. It may be a good move. Maybe not. But only time will tell. Not everyone is going to be a fan of it. But it's a business decision that has been made. I'm sure they are evaluating the public response and will adjust course according to what makes sense to them (we've seen that already). Some people will be affected and they have a choice to make. Those that supported financially in the past or that currently subscribe to Premiere are reaping the benefits of their choice and go unaffected.

Edited March 7, 2017 by overClocked!

[Guest asrequested]

This is so tiring. This is simply a choice of pay or don't pay. Nobody has a strong argument when they complain that the free stuff doesn't work the way they want. If you don't like how the free stuff works, feel free to find something more to your liking. But instead, what you'll do is argue and defend an indefensible position. Like the song says "you can't always get what you want" just accept it.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Doofus

[zigzagtshirt 55]

I find it hard to believe that people who apparently pour so much money into their media collection and equipment can't afford another 100 dollars for a LIFETIME license.

 

Not saying that the person who started this thread fits in that category necessarily, but many do.

[Spaceboy 2498]

Interesting, if your media consumption is from streaming, why are you on this site????

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrMMrX_Jvp8&t=68s

because i'm intelligent enough to know about things that arent directly relevant to me. you'd have to be a special kind of person to have missed out on the rise of netflix chap

[Jack Burton 94]

This is so tiring. This is simply a choice of pay or don't pay. Nobody has a strong argument when they complain that the free stuff doesn't work the way they want. If you don't like how the free stuff works, feel free to find something more to your liking. But instead, what you'll do is argue and defend an indefensible position. Like the song says "you can't always get what you want" just accept it.

 

 

I find it hard to believe that people who apparently pour so much money into their media collection and equipment can't afford another 100 dollars for a LIFETIME license.

 

Not saying that the person who started this thread fits in that category necessarily, but many do.

 

Exactly. Came in here to pretty much say the same, of course lifetime generally lasts for around 2 years I think, but still that's $50 a year. 50 bucks. That's what, 2 blurays? How is that not worth it? Beyond that as well, and I've said this a few times already, Emby's strength isn't just about the software. You have an issue, jump on the forums, and usually get a dev response within an hour, and a fix the same day. If all the bells and whistles you get with premiere were gone, this alone would be worth paying for in my opinion.

[cptlores 23]

By that logic pretty much any open source project that is worth using, would end up costing money. Would you pay for your favorite Linux distro, Firefox, Chome or <insert any popular open-source project>?

 

Or taking this one step further. Imagine first having to pay for Emby, and then once more for ffmpeg and each of the other open source systems they use to build Emby. This is the core problem with commercialization of open-source projects. Emby is built on the shoulders of other projects given to them for free. What makes Emby so special in comparison to them?

 

For this reason most go the support and premium feature route. Nobody has a problem with paying for premium features. It's the degrading of already established free features that is causing friction with open-source users.