Opinions on Audio to Retain/Discard when Converting to MKV?

[funwithmedia 352]

So though I'm currently still planning to keep most of my Movies in the old VIDEO_TS format, I am persuaded as the benefits of (slowly) converting my TV shows to MKV.

 

In one recent conversion I noticed that MakeMKV defaulted to un-selecting (ie, not including in the outputted MKV file) DD Stereo, while retaining DD Surround 5.1. I'm definitely interested in retaining the best quality audio options in my files, but I'm wondering if there is anything I should be aware of regarding stripping out "lower" audio options like MakeMKV appears to default to?

 

My current setup is a 2.1 system, but am thinking about upgrading at some point (possibly to a 5.1 type of setup).

 

I guess I just wonder in part if I might run into issues because of not having the more basic audio options in my files, or if Emby (and apps in general these days) should do fine with downmixing (is that the right term?) as needed?

 

All thoughts and opinions welcome -- thanks!

[Guest asrequested]

So though I'm currently still planning to keep most of my Movies in the old VIDEO_TS format, I am persuaded as the benefits of (slowly) converting my TV shows to MKV.

 

In one recent conversion I noticed that MakeMKV defaulted to un-selecting (ie, not including in the outputted MKV file) DD Stereo, while retaining DD Surround 5.1. I'm definitely interested in retaining the best quality audio options in my files, but I'm wondering if there is anything I should be aware of regarding stripping out "lower" audio options like MakeMKV appears to default to?

 

My current setup is a 2.1 system, but am thinking about upgrading at some point (possibly to a 5.1 type of setup).

 

I guess I just wonder in part if I might run into issues because of not having the more basic audio options in my files, or if Emby (and apps in general these days) should do fine with downmixing (is that the right term?) as needed?

 

All thoughts and opinions welcome -- thanks!

 

Keep the originals. It's easier to transcode down than it is, up

[Koleckai Silvestri 1150]

I keep the highest quality audio track and the two-channel track in English and everything else goes. Except Anime. I will keep the Japanese tracks on Anime as well.

[FrostByte 5041]

I've found Emby transcodes audio fairly quickly with no issues in the apps I use.  However, if you decide to keep both the 5.1 and stereo tracks for now it's very easy and fast to remux later using mkvmerge to take out the stereo track if you want to save space.  If you still want to keep both audio tracks after upgrading then you can just use the header editor in Mkvmerge to change the default flag on the audio tracks and not even have to remux.

[ebr 14897]

Also, I cannot remember the exact procedure (it isn't necessarily intuitive) but it is possible to configure which tracks MakeMKV will automatically select.

[PhinkBig 9]

This is the MakeMKV profile I use:

-sel:all,+sel:(eng),+sel:(forced&(eng)),-sel:mvcvideo,=100:all,-10:favlang

 

It selects all English audio and subtitle tracks, and no others. Can be modified for other parameters by following the instructions here: https://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4386&sid=9e3c548a38dd0d8bc21381aa007b5bc8

[Waldonnis 148]

If you have the space, my advice is to keep whatever lossless tracks that are present in the source material.  If you ever get a playback device and AV that support bitstreaming and decoding formats like DTS-HD MA or TrueHD Atmos, it makes a noticeable difference in audio quality compared to their lossy brethren (DTS/AC-3).  The tracks do tend to be quite large, though, so if storage space is an issue and you're not super picky about audio quailty, then the lossy tracks are probably fine to keep instead (I have some movies with audio tracks that take up more space than the re-encoded video).  Personally, I keep the lossless tracks if the sound quality adds to the film or the imaging on the lossless track is superb (TRON Legacy's soundtrack, for example), but am fine with just the DTS or AC-3 lossy tracks for less sound-intensive movies (most comedies, generic dramas, etc).

 

Transcoding audio is "cheap" CPU-wise, but if most of your devices can only handle stereo AAC, you can always keep the higher-quality surround track as a secondary, non-default option.  Personally, I don't like the default downmix settings, so I just transcode to a stereo AAC track myself and keep the good surround audio alongside it in my MKVs (everyone knows how finicky I am at this point  ).  If you use something like Handbrake to encode your movies, be sure to select the highest quality track for the source if you're converting to AAC stereo as well (no point in going lossy->lossy when you can go lossless->lossy).

 

One thing to note is that while DTS-HD contains a lossy DTS "core" that can be used seamlessly if only (lossy) DTS can be decoded by the device, the same can't be said for TrueHD.  The TrueHD spec doesn't require an AC-3 core to be stored, so it may or may not be present.  In these cases, I keep a lossy AC-3 track as well in case one of my devices can't bitstream/decode TrueHD.

 

Worst case, you can always extract the higher quality tracks and remux them into your video files later without re-encoding the whole movie, provided you have the source material handy (I did this for ~300 movies not long ago).  It takes time, but not as long as it does to re-encode the video too.

 

This is the MakeMKV profile I use:

-sel:all,+sel:(eng),+sel:(forced&(eng)),-sel:mvcvideo,=100:all,-10:favlang

 

It selects all English audio and subtitle tracks, and no others. Can be modified for other parameters by following the instructions here: https://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4386&sid=9e3c548a38dd0d8bc21381aa007b5bc8

 

^^ This.  I highly recommend making a custom profile or two for MakeMKV.  The syntax seems a bit arcane, but once you get it working, it's a huge timesaver.  These days with my custom profile, I just pop in a disc and hit the copy button, knowing that everything I want is already auto-selected.  The default profile always had me clicking for a few minutes before I even start the copy since it didn't select some of the audio or subtitle tracks that I wanted.

[ebr 14897]

This is the MakeMKV profile I use:

-sel:all,+sel:(eng),+sel:(forced&(eng)),-sel:mvcvideo,=100:all,-10:favlang

 

It selects all English audio and subtitle tracks, and no others. Can be modified for other parameters by following the instructions here: https://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4386&sid=9e3c548a38dd0d8bc21381aa007b5bc8

 

Yeah, that's it.  Thanks.

 

Boy, that interface was designed by a computer engineer...

[FrostByte 5041]

If you have the space, my advice is to keep whatever lossless tracks that are present in the source material.

 

I didn't realize DVDs had a lossless audio track (other than maybe PCM)

[Waldonnis 148]

I didn't realize DVDs had a lossless audio track (other than maybe PCM)

 

 I missed the part about DVD copies, I guess...but it's good advice! 

[funwithmedia 352]

You all are awesome!

 

I've unfortunately been getting my butt kicked by illness this week, so I've not had a chance to really digest all the great comments and suggestions in detail. But I'm looking forward to parsing through these and asking some follow up questions hopefully within the next week or so (when my brain will be clearer!).

 

Folks are welcome to continue to share their thoughts and comments in the meantime!

[Luke 36991]

Hope you get better soon.

[funwithmedia 352]

Hope you get better soon.

Thanks @@Luke!

[funwithmedia 352]

Thank you again everyone for all the great comments!

 

A few followup questions...

 

Keep the originals. It's easier to transcode down than it is, up

By "originals" do you mean "keep all audio tracks?"

 

I keep the highest quality audio track and the two-channel track in English and everything else goes. Except Anime. I will keep the Japanese tracks on Anime as well.

Can you tell me more about why you keep the two-channel track in addition to higher quality tracks?

 

If you have the space, my advice is to keep whatever lossless tracks that are present in the source material.  If you ever get a playback device and AV that support bitstreaming and decoding formats like DTS-HD MA or TrueHD Atmos, it makes a noticeable difference in audio quality compared to their lossy brethren (DTS/AC-3).  ......

I'm definitely all for keeping all of the higher quality tracks. Any thoughts/recommendations on whether I should also be keeping lower quality tracks?

 

I'm cool with the extra space of keeping any/all high quality audio tracks, but I'm trying to determine if there is any benefit to keeping lower quality tracks (and if so, which types of lower quality tracks I should make sure to keep). I'm also not averse to just keeping ALL audio tracks, but if there's no benefit of any kind to keeping the lower quality ones then I might leave them out.

[Luke 36991]

The beta release has been updated to retain all tracks. It won't be in the upcoming stable, but the one after that.

[funwithmedia 352]

The beta release has been updated to retain all tracks. It won't be in the upcoming stable, but the one after that.

Interesting. I'm assuming you're referring to MakeMKV (and not Emby) -- correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

[Luke 36991]

I'm not sure what you're asking sorry.

[funwithmedia 352]

I'm not sure what you're asking sorry.

No problem. Was your above comment of "The beta release has been updated to retain all tracks" referring to an update to the MakeMKV software, or to an update to Emby?

[Guest asrequested]

Thank you again everyone for all the great comments!

 

A few followup questions...

 

By "originals" do you mean "keep all audio tracks?"

 

Well, not the tracks that you will never use, like foreign language. Any tracks that you want to hear, keep them in their original format. When watching  on an app that doesn't support it, the server will easily convert it as needed.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Doofus

[funwithmedia 352]

Well, not the tracks that you will never use, like foreign language. Any tracks that you want to hear, keep them in their original format. When watching  on an app that doesn't support it, the server will easily convert it as needed.

Cool, thanks! And do you have any opinion on whether there is any benefit to keeping lower quality original tracks or not? Eg, if I'm already keeping the higher quality DD Surround 5.1 do you seen any benefit to also keeping the DD Stereo track?

[Guest asrequested]

Cool, thanks! And do you have any opinion on whether there is any benefit to keeping lower quality original tracks or not? Eg, if I'm already keeping the higher quality DD Surround 5.1 do you seen any benefit to also keeping the DD Stereo track?

 

It might be beneficial if you have a device that only supports DD 2 channel. But if you want to save space, it isn't essential. I tend to keep as many english tracks as there available.

[funwithmedia 352]

It might be beneficial if you have a device that only supports DD 2 channel. But if you want to save space, it isn't essential. I tend to keep as many english tracks as there available.

Cool, thanks -- that's helpful.

[Waldonnis 148]

I'm cool with the extra space of keeping any/all high quality audio tracks, but I'm trying to determine if there is any benefit to keeping lower quality tracks (and if so, which types of lower quality tracks I should make sure to keep). I'm also not averse to just keeping ALL audio tracks, but if there's no benefit of any kind to keeping the lower quality ones then I might leave them out.

 

For me, it depends on several factors.  I keep the lossless track no matter what, but since most of my playback devices are Rokus, there are some other things that I have to consider.  First, Roku doesn't pass lossless formats like DTS-HD or TrueHD through to a receiver nor can they decode the streams natively, so I have to have either the core audio present (DTS-HD keeps a DTS core included) or the AC3 5.1 track present on the media as well (TrueHD doesn't require a core to be present within its stream...and to preserve the mix of the original rather than using what ffmpeg defaults to).  Also, only one of my Rokus is connected to a receiver to begin with, so I manually transcode and mux in an AAC stereo track as well.

 

I dislike the default mix settings since dialogue tends to get overpowered in action scenes sometimes, so I don't rely on on-the-fly transcoding for the AAC stereo track.  If you don't mind the CPU load and the on-the-fly transcoded audio sounds fine to you, then you don't even need to make the AAC track yourself as the server will handle transcoding it.

 

So, to boil it down...

For sources that have DTS-HD Master Audio tracks, my normal pared-down MKV includes an AAC stereo track as the default for the Rokus without an AVR and the lossless DTS-HD MA track.  For sources that have TrueHD or TrueHD/Atmos, I have an AAC stereo track as the default for the reason above, as well as the lossless TrueHD/Atmos track and the source's AC3 track included as well.  During playback I just make sure to select the highest quality audio track that my particular device can handle so I always get the best audio experience that I can.

 

Even though my Rokus are used for playback 90% of the time and can't handle the lossless track, it's been very handy to have them around just in case I have to re-transcode/remix the AAC stereo track (which has happened several times - looking at you, Force Awakens!) or want to watch things on something that can handle decoding it (like my computer).

 

Edit: One more thing, if you like listening to commentary tracks, you can probably keep them as they are or transcode those down to AAC stereo for maximum compatibility and to keep the size down.  It's rare that commentary tracks aren't stereo already, but it may save a little space/bandwidth and you won't notice a difference in quality usually from the AC3/DTS commentary track sources.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Waldonnis

[Guest asrequested]

And transcoding audio on the fly, the server can do with very little effort...as if by magic

[funwithmedia 352]

Thanks @@Waldonnis for providing so much detail -- very helpful!

 

Based on everyone's excellent comments I think I'm leaning towards just keeping all tracks. The extra space is not that big of a deal, and I'd rather just do this once and then be covered for all possible future scenarios.