[Shield Pro + HDfury Arcana] Dolby Vision: Netflix, yes. Emby, no.

[mbguy 38]

Does anyone here have a Samsung TV and use HDfury Arcana to get Dolby Vision?

I have my Samsung Projector (LSP9T) that supports HDR10+ connected this way:

LSP9T -> Receiver -> HDfury Arcana -> Shield Pro

In this configuration, Netflix app on Shield Pro displays the "Dolby Vision" icon and supposedly sends LLDV to the Samsung TV.

On the other hand, Emby on the same Shield Pro does not show "Dolby Vision" and only "4K HDR" badge, which I assume means Emby is not detecting the display device as Dolby Vision capable. I have tried many many DoVi titles so it shouldn't be a profile issue.

I think Emby may need something else in this imaging chain to be "fooled" into thinking that there is a DoVi-capable display device so it doesn't use the default HDR profile embedded in these DoVi files. Feedback is welcomed.

[FrostByte 5052]

I have a vertex2 and the chain is

2019 Shield pro > Vertex2 then main goes out to Samsung TV and audio goes to soundbar.

 

 

[rbjtech 4287]

The only thing that Emby 'recognises' (at this time) is if the display is HDR capable.  It is not yet DV 'aware'.

The reason DV 'works' on emby with a DV capable display is because it is direct playing - it doesn't 'know' if it's DV5, DV7, DV8 etc

I'm not familiar with the HDfury Arcana - is it converting the DV colour space to HDR for the Samsung ?

If yes, then I think it will only work with LLDV (Profile 5 DV - I think..)  - All my devices play native DV .. so I've never needed to find out ... sorry !

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by rbjtech

[FrostByte 5052]

Emby doesn't know if a file is DV yet (all HDR is reported as just HDR), but both Android clients should be able to report the capabilities of the device the Shield is directly hooked up to.

In ATV this information should be in SFN, and in the standard app there should be a line in the log with something like below

*** Supported HDR Types: ,10,DV

I get LLDV and RPU supposedly, but I don't get FEL from UHD movies

I'm not aware if Emby does anything with that information though, I believe it just passes whatever you give it because it doesn't know if your file is DV.  The capabilities are probably just FYI so you know why DV is or isn't working.

[rbjtech 4287]

19 hours ago, FrostByte said:

Emby doesn't know if a file is DV yet (all HDR is reported as just HDR), but both Android clients should be able to report the capabilities of the device the Shield is directly hooked up to.

In ATV this information should be in SFN, and in the standard app there should be a line in the log with something like below

*** Supported HDR Types: ,10,DV

I get LLDV and RPU supposedly, but I don't get FEL from UHD movies

I'm not aware if Emby does anything with that information though, I believe it just passes whatever you give it because it doesn't know if your file is DV.  The capabilities are probably just FYI so you know why DV is or isn't working.

Agreed - it's what I said above  but glad we are aligned .. 

I think this situation will be changing soon - with ffmpeg 5.0+ and the recent DoVi conversations with softworkz, I'm hoping DoVi integration will be added soon - long overdue - but as it's part of ffmpeg now, there are no more excuses .. !     

Then we just need to wait for the more advanced AV stuff (Atmos etc) but I can't see that happening any time soon - not that it's an issue anymore as using the MediaInfo plugin has been brilliant in that regard.

Edited September 2, 2022 by rbjtech

[ebr 14929]

5 hours ago, rbjtech said:

I'm hoping DoVi integration will be added soon

Just for clarification - this would be detection rather than full conversion support.

[rbjtech 4287]

23 minutes ago, ebr said:

Just for clarification - this would be detection rather than full conversion support.

ok - thanks for clarifying.  If emby isn't planning on going down the DoVi transcoding to SDR road - then that would be disappointing. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by rbjtech

[ebr 14929]

8 hours ago, rbjtech said:

If emby isn't planning on going down the DoVi transcoding to SDR road - then that would be disappointing.

This would be dependent on the legal and reasonable availability of such capability.  Dolby Vision is not a public domain format or standard.  It is a proprietary technology created by and owned by Dolby Labs and they created it specifically so they could sell licenses to it.

[mbguy 38]

On 9/1/2022 at 12:09 PM, FrostByte said:

Emby doesn't know if a file is DV yet (all HDR is reported as just HDR), but both Android clients should be able to report the capabilities of the device the Shield is directly hooked up to.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. It sounds encouraging to hear that Emby will have better "detection" capability of HDR formats soon.

In the meantime, I have these questions:
1. Why does Emby currently report DoVi files as "4K" and HDR10/HDR10+ files as "4K HDR" on Shield Pro when connected via HDfury Arcana to Samsung TV? It seems Emby can detect some difference as it is.

2. Will Emby add the capability to show "Dolby VIsion", "HDR10" and "HDR10+" badges on different files?

3. I am not sure if there are files that contain both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ formats currently, but if a movie is encoded in both formats, which format will Emby decide to play, in this scenario where my Samsung TV is native HDR10+ and it's also hooked up to HDfury Arcana that can convert LLDV to HDR10.

Edited September 6, 2022 by mbguy

[FrostByte 5052]

6 hours ago, mbguy said:

 

3. I am not sure if there are files that contain both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ formats currently, but if a movie is encoded in both formats, which format will Emby decide to play, in this scenario where my Samsung TV is native HDR10+ and it's also hooked up to HDfury Arcana that can convert LLDV to HDR10.

There are a few movies with both, 1917 (good movie) is one that comes to mind.

So, if you're talking like in my setup

•    Shield -> HDFury -> Samsung TV
•                                  -> AVR

Emby doesn't play anything, it tells the Shield to pass the video to your device which either plays it or passes it again to the end device.  If Emby detects your device doesn't support something it will transcode first before passing. 

Also, the Shield Pro can't pass HDR10+.  It doesn't know what to do with it.  So, the metadata probably isn't even getting to the HDFury.  You should get LLDV with 1917.

If a device supports both HDR10+ and DV then it's up to that device to decide which to play.  Emby doesn't do the deciding.  

 

[Dizzy49 94]

Ok, so that I am crystal clear...

Emby does not pass Dolby Vision, or HDR... Making my brand new TV kind of pointless?
What if it is Direct Played?  Will the display pick up that it's HDR?

I have several files that are encoded with both HDR10 and Dolby Vision.

@mbguy @FrostByte  I am confused on what exactly the HDFury does.  Let's say I'm playing something from Netflix that has DV, but my new TV only supports HDR10.  With the HDFury Netflix would detect my display as being DV enabled and send the DV signal.  Does the HDFury actually do anything with that signal before sending it to my TV?  I THOUGHT it was reading the metadata from DV throughout the video and converting it to HDR10 for the display to display a DV-like video.

I FINALLY have a 4k TV that is HDR10 capable so I'm trying to figure out how to actually take advantage of what I have.  We watch a good 70% of our stuff via Emby, and I have an extensive library of HDR and DV content that I'd like to be able to view while taking advantage of those formats.

[rbjtech 4287]

To use HDR and/or DV - you NEED to have it Direct Play both the VIDEO (and in MOST cases) the Audio as well.

HD Audio is the usual culprit on tripping up people - so by selecting Dolby Digital (AC3) or Dolby Digital Plus (EAC3) - before playback - then you have a good chance of it working with HDR/DV.

Unless you have an external media player, such as the Nvidia Shield and an AVR capable of playing HD Audio (Dolby True-HD, DTS-HD etc) then by using this audio track (which is usually the 'default'..  ) all they do is destroy your ability to Direct Play and thus transcode, meaning you lose the HDR/DV.

[Dizzy49 94]

47 minutes ago, rbjtech said:

To use HDR and/or DV - you NEED to have it Direct Play both the VIDEO (and in MOST cases) the Audio as well.

HD Audio is the usual culprit on tripping up people - so by selecting Dolby Digital (AC3) or Dolby Digital Plus (EAC3) - before playback - then you have a good chance of it working with HDR/DV.

Unless you have an external media player, such as the Nvidia Shield and an AVR capable of playing HD Audio (Dolby True-HD, DTS-HD etc) then by using this audio track (which is usually the 'default'..  ) all they do is destroy your ability to Direct Play and thus transcode, meaning you lose the HDR/DV.

My new LG has WebOS22, which I believe has an Emby app for it.  Right now we use a Firestick 4k.  It would be plugged into our Nakamichi Shockwafe soundbar, so direct audio should work fine.  And then direct video to either the display or a HDFury device then display.  It seems like that would work.  I don't know how direct play from the WebOS app would work, pretty should I couldn't route the video from the native app to HDFury and back to the tv.

[rbjtech 4287]

6 minutes ago, Dizzy49 said:

My new LG has WebOS22, which I believe has an Emby app for it.  Right now we use a Firestick 4k.  It would be plugged into our Nakamichi Shockwafe soundbar, so direct audio should work fine.  And then direct video to either the display or a HDFury device then display.  It seems like that would work.  I don't know how direct play from the WebOS app would work, pretty should I couldn't route the video from the native app to HDFury and back to the tv.

HD Audio will not work via ARC or eARC or via any TV - the only way to process HD Audio is via a Shield (or device capable of HD Audio passthough) into an AVR.

Using the LG App will work fine for HDR/DV (I have an LG OLED myself and have the LG App installed, but use the Shield as my player to allow me to play HD Audio) but the LG will not playback or pass HD Audio - by design - you need to use AC3, EAC3 etc as specified above.

Not sure why you need an HDFury tbh ?

Edited November 24, 2022 by rbjtech

[FrostByte 5052]

Agree, a HDFury shouldn't be needed in this case if the LG supports DV.

What the HDfury does for me is it allows my Samsung to display LLDV and DV metadata.  

Emby just passes the video to the Shield when direct playing.  It's the Shield then that detects my TV doesn't support DV.  So I plug the Shield into the HDFury Vertex 2 which converts the video signal.

My setup

Shield -->> HDFury --> Video out --> TV
                   --> Audio out --> Soundbar 

This setup works for me for two reasons.  First, the whole chain has to support DV (or at least passing DV) which my soundbar doesn't and my TV won't pass HD audio to my soundbar

[rbjtech 4287]

I actually write a knowledgebase piece on this - not specifically for HDR/DV, but it will help in this case I think to show the video/audio 'flow' through the systems.

see link below - 

Why does the Emby App for my LG TV not play the Dolby Atmos TrueHD Audio without Transcoding? :

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by rbjtech

[ebr 14929]

8 hours ago, Dizzy49 said:

Emby does not pass Dolby Vision, or HDR

That is incorrect.  Mostly explained above but, given proper support in the hardware for all aspects of the media, Emby will pass these just fine.

[Dizzy49 94]

@FrostByte @rbjtech

My new TV is the 86" LG 86UQ7590 and it does NOT support Dolby Vision.  It's a bit updated from the other UQ line.

Picture Processor: a7 Gen5 AI  (So not the a9 of the newest LG C2, but not a5 from last year either)
HDR: Active HDR (HDR10, HLG) Dynamic Tone Mapping
Refresh: 120Hz
FreeSync Premium: Yes
Variable Refresh Rate: Yes

I do not know how to tell if it support LLDV

[FrostByte 5052]

Ahh, okay.  Nice one.

LLDV is just the type of DV found in profile 5 which is what you would get from streaming services like Disney+.  It will probably look green or purple on your TV because there is no HDR10 base layer to fall back on.  You can play DV profile 7 (from UHD) or profile 8.1 (UHD hybrid) because it has an HDR10 layer, but it won't trigger DV.

[rbjtech 4287]

right ok - so HDR should be fine, but to play DV you do need to use the HD Fury to tonemap it to HDR.

The problem is, you are trying to use the TV as the 'player/emby client' - and I don't it possible to go TV > HDFury then back to TV again

If you use a Shield > HDFury > TV - then you should be able to play HDR and DV (via the HDFury tonemapping to HDR for you) 

Audio is being extracted by the HDFury - and I presume this supports HD Audio for your soundbar ?

[FrostByte 5052]

Agree with rbjtech.  Not sure if you can loop back the picture using the LG app.  That's something you would have to ask the folks at HDfury.   

I use it with my Shield and XB1X as input.

They aren't cheap either.  You could have probably spent the extra $450 US on an LG with DV

4K Vertex2 18Gbps | HDFury.com | Connect and Fix everything in HDMI

 

58 minutes ago, rbjtech said:

Audio is being extracted by the HDFury - and I presume this supports HD Audio for your soundbar ?

Yes, it acts like a splitter for 4K video and HD audio.  I get TrueHD Atmos and DTS:X to trigger on my soundbar.

[Dizzy49 94]

Finally got my TV connected and tested some things.

I have files encoded as "HDR", "HDR10", "HDR10+", and "Dolby Vision".

All of them BUT the HDR10+ caused the TV to pop up the HDR icon.  I don't know if its tone mapping.

[rbjtech 4287]

If you're using the HDFury - then I believe this is expected behaviour - as DV is being 'tone mapped' in hardware and converted to an HDR10 compatible video stream - thus your TV pops us an HDR message.

I'm not sure if the HDF is compatible with HDR10+ - BUT it should be backwards compatible - and just use HDR10 if a HDR10+ capable playback device is not used.  ie it 'should' display HDR in this case - or if your TV is HDR10+ - then it should indicate this. ?

Need @FrostByte to confirm here for the HDF - as I don't have/need one as I have a DV capable display (but it does not have HDR10+ - but just displays as HDR10 - as it should).

Edited December 2, 2022 by rbjtech

[Dizzy49 94]

45 minutes ago, rbjtech said:

If you're using the HDFury - then I believe this is expected behaviour - as DV is being 'tone mapped' in hardware and converted to an HDR10 compatible video stream - thus your TV pops us an HDR message.

I am not using anything right now.  It's straight from the Emby WebOS app and that's why I wasn't sure if it's being tone mapped.  I **THINK** that my TV does tone mapping using the AI.

My TV is **NOT** DV compatible, so I was quite happy that it still showed HDR, pretty sure it's falling back on the HDR10.  I expected the HDR10+ to do that.  I may need to find a couple more HDR10+ files to test to be sure.

Tuesday I will get my Atmos soundbar and will be able to see how that all works.

[rbjtech 4287]

1 minute ago, Dizzy49 said:

, pretty sure it's falling back on the HDR10.  I expected the HDR10+ to do that.  I may need to find a couple more HDR10+ files to test to be sure.

Depends on the DV profile - if DV5 - then unless the TV is doing colour space mapping - then you'll get the purple/green mess - but if DV7 or DV8 - then it will fallback to the HDR10 layer as you've said above.   I've not seen it, but DV8 may even allow it to fallback to HDR10+ - but I'm not 100% on this as I've never seen it myself.