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What is locking all my tuners?


CharlieMurphy
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CharlieMurphy

I did so many things, just to see if I could cause it. I'll try to narrow it down to the specific event. Home key from a stream did not cause it immediately, I tested that and the stream came right back up. I think maybe what caused it was a specific unstable channel/stream losing connection and kicking the Roku back out to the guide. Then the dashboard shows nothing and m3u limit is also reached.

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Keep in mind the server could be trying to re-establish the stream you asked for so if you try another right away it would show it over the limit. What might be a good idea if you get the over limit warning is to wait 5 minutes and try it again.  Is it still over the limit or did the server free it up?  Might not need 5 minutes but that would be a good first time test.

The problem with one stream is that it can limit the way Emby works. Most tuners or providers give 3 or more streams which ads some wiggle room.  This can allow a stream to be open while Emby opens another channel before shutting down the first. Not saying that applies to the way you were testing.

So far in your testing does it seem like the latest beta is trapping and handling this better than before?

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martincom

Well, I determined why Emby is transcoding some channels and not others.  I'm gathering it cannot pass interlaced video.  The progressive scanned channels, 720P, are direct streaming.  the interlaced channels, 1380i and 480i, are being transcoded.

Utilizing the developer's guide that  CharlieMurphy provided the link to, I attempted to add parameters to the tuner url so it would do the transcoding.  However, I couldn't find a combination that would work with my HDHomerun Flex.  There is a check box within the Emby tuner setup I gather is to enable Emby to accomplish the same task, but it does not appear to have an effect.

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13 hours ago, CharlieMurphy said:

I think maybe what caused it was a specific unstable channel/stream losing connection and kicking the Roku back out to the guide

I think a failure for a channel to actually start playing may still be an issue with the tracking.

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On 9/15/2021 at 4:02 PM, CharlieMurphy said:

Got it. I Googled it and it looks like HDHR does transcode for clients. AVC means... h264? I'm in too deep.

https://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/hdhomerun_http_development.pdf

 

Maybe Emby could request that the HDHR does the transcode. Or maybe the HDHR could be configured to default to that.

 

23 minutes ago, martincom said:

Well, I determined why Emby is transcoding some channels and not others.  I'm gathering it cannot pass interlaced video.  The progressive scanned channels, 720P, are direct streaming.  the interlaced channels, 1380i and 480i, are being transcoded.

Utilizing the developer's guide that  CharlieMurphy provided the link to, I attempted to add parameters to the tuner url so it would do the transcoding.  However, I couldn't find a combination that would work with my HDHomerun Flex.  There is a check box within the Emby tuner setup I gather is to enable Emby to accomplish the same task, but it does not appear to have an effect.

I believe SiliconDust only had one older model that supported transcoding on the box which was the 2 channel OTA Extend.  The quality wasn't that good and most people using it with Emby would turn that off and let Emby Server do the transcoding as does a much better job and the quality was much better letting Emby do the transcoding.

Some Emby clients can handle interlaced video while others can't.  But as you found out Emby Server will transcode those channels for you when needed.

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CharlieMurphy

Testing again today. I want to make sure I get my facts straight before I give any more feedback so I don't make a mess of bad info here.

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martincom
23 hours ago, cayars said:

 

I believe SiliconDust only had one older model that supported transcoding on the box which was the 2 channel OTA Extend.  The quality wasn't that good and most people using it with Emby would turn that off and let Emby Server do the transcoding as does a much better job and the quality was much better letting Emby do the transcoding.

Some Emby clients can handle interlaced video while others can't.  But as you found out Emby Server will transcode those channels for you when needed.

I'm thinking Emby is transcoding when it is not necessary.  Our primary playback device is the Roku Ultra 4.0.31 and when playing a live, interlaced, 480i or 1380i, channel through Emby, it is transcoded by Emby.  However, when playing the same channel through the HDHomerun app, it plays fine.  The Roku is up converting its output to 1080p, as configured in the settings.  So either the app is instructing the HDHomerun tuner to transcode or the Roku is accepting the interlaced feed.

Also,when playing the same channel through the Roku DLNA app, "Roku Media Player", directly from the HDHomerun DLNA server, it plays fine and the Roku is again up converting its output to 1080p.

Lastly, when playing the same channel through the Roku DLNA app, "Roku Media Player", from the Emby DLNA server, it plays fine and the Roku is up converting its output to 1080p.  Neither the Emby Dashboard nor logs indicate any transcoding is occurring.

 

 

Note:  The Roku would not auto detect/decode the DLNA audio stream, from either the HDHiomerun or Emby DLNA servers, nor the HDHomerun app, when the Roku audio settings were configured to "auto".  The Roku audio settings had to be configured to:

Audio Mode: "Auto (DD)"

HDMI: (Dolby Digital)

All of the OTA channels being received by the HDHomerun Flex tuner had their audio encoded as either Dolby Digital 5.1 or Dolby Digital 2.0.

Edited by martincom
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I believe at this time the only devices we allow to do local deinterlacing are actual Roku TVs because we know they will be able to do it.

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Deinterlacing is handled by the Television. The Roku just passes the stream it isn't manipulate it in any way. If your television supports it your Roku will. If the image has to be downscaled (the Roku can do this itself during direct play) for any reason Deinterlacing may not be possible on the Roku unless it is a Roku TV. That is why the limitation is only for Roku TV at this time.

Edited by speechles
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martincom
1 minute ago, ebr said:

I believe at this time the only devices we allow to do local deinterlacing are actual Roku TVs because we know they will be able to do it.

Can there be a query added to establish if the client playback device can support deinterlacing?  Alternatively, can you add a button, in the settings, to allow local deinterlacing?

I'm hosting Emby server on Window Server 2012, on actual hardware intended to be a server.  It has served this application well, but I have avoided transcoding as much as possible.  The server hardware does not have a lot of processing powering---and normally you wouldn't expect a server to need it.  Likewise, the OS limits processors at two in its present configuration.  I can work around this, but it gets expensive as every two processors require another server license.  In its present configuration, transcoding a single 1080i live channel bumps maximum processor capacity, causing "loading" pauses in the programming.

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martincom
10 minutes ago, speechles said:

Deinterlacing is handled by the Television. The Roku just passes the stream it isn't manipulate it in any way. If your television supports it your Roku will. If the image has to be downscaled (the Roku can do this itself during direct play) for any reason Deinterlacing may not be possible on the Roku unless it is a Roku TV. That is why the limitation is only for Roku TV at this time.

That wasn't what I found in my testing.  When utilizing either the HDHomerun app or the Roku Media Player app and performing interlaced playback directly from the HDHomerun Flex tuner, the television display indicated 1080p.   This would correspond with the selection of "autodetect" within the Roku menu "Settings\Display type\autodetect".  So the Roku would be performing the up converting from either 480i or 1080i channels I tested to 1080p.  The 1080p limitation is within the television.  I expect the Roku would have up converted to 4k resolutions, if the connected TV would have supported it.

If the Roku is not deinterlacing, then it would have to be performed in the tuner, in my test scenarios.  This would contradict the information supplied by cayars.

 

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We could potentially add an option like we have in the Android TV app that determines if interlaced streams will be de-interlaced on the server or not.

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martincom

That would be great.  You're the man!  You're saving my marriage.

Edited by martincom
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18 minutes ago, martincom said:

If the Roku is not deinterlacing, then it would have to be performed in the tuner, in my test scenarios.  This would contradict the information supplied by cayars.

I don't think that contradicts anything I've said about the way Emby handles Live TV for your device.

If your device and TV can handle deinterlacing and an option is added then this of course would change the current functionality which could be a benefit to you.

BTW, when using an external device you're not touching the tuner in the TV but instead using the HDMI input.
There is no way to know how any particular TV will handle deinterlacing on HDMI inputs or DLNA without trying it.  Some TVs will only deinterlace in the tuner, some TVs might require an external device to be setup using 1080i vs 1080p, etc...

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martincom
52 minutes ago, cayars said:

I don't think that contradicts anything I've said about the way Emby handles Live TV for your device.

I apologize for not being concise.  I was referring to your statement regarding the tuner:

"I believe SiliconDust only had one older model that supported transcoding on the box which was the 2 channel OTA Extend."

52 minutes ago, cayars said:

There is no way to know how any particular TV will handle deinterlacing on HDMI inputs or DLNA without trying it.  Some TVs will only deinterlace in the tuner, some TVs might require an external device to be setup using 1080i vs 1080p, etc...

I would, respectfully, disagree with your above statement as it applies to HDMI.  As an example, I again point to the Roku settings menu I utilized in my reply in the fourth previous post: "Settings\Display type\.   The Roku offers an "autodetect" selection that would, in turn, have to detect the TV's capabilities via HDMI.

Also, when locking the Roku display resolution to 720p (confirmed on the TV's info display) and playing a 1080i live channel via the Roku Media Player from a DLNA server, it is down converted to 720p by what I'm assuming would be the Roku.

Edited by martincom
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To the best of my memory that is still true as the Extend device is the only HDHomeRun I remember that can do transcoding on the tuner but wasn't a great picture.

Don't mix up the Roku being able to deinterlace vs the TV. Many TVs will not deinterlace on HDMI input which is why the deinterlacing is done on the device.
None of my TVs for example can deinterlace on the HDMI input.  I can have my Shield TV do the deinterlacing but the HDMI input is getting progressive or 1080p at that point.

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martincom
19 minutes ago, cayars said:

Don't mix up the Roku being able to deinterlace vs the TV. Many TVs will not deinterlace on HDMI input which is why the deinterlacing is done on the device.
None of my TVs for example can deinterlace on the HDMI input.  I can have my Shield TV do the deinterlacing but the HDMI input is getting progressive or 1080p at that point.

That would be logical.  The Roku, for example, does not offer any interlaced resolutions in the display type menu selections. My A/V receivers do offer them as an output selection choice, but I have never verified if the TV, being utilized as a monitor, would accept it.  Moreover, why would a person desire to?

The first high end TV system I ever owned was a Pioneeer Foresight.  It was released along with their Laserdisc player.  It had a separate component tuner and a 25" CRT based monitor.  It and the Laserdisc's big claim to fame was the picture quality offered by 480p resolution versed 480i !!!!!

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Yep the laserdisc only output progressive video but owed most of it's picture quality to the amount of horizontal lines stored on the media. LDs stored 425 TVL lines for NTSC compared to 240 TVL lines with NTSC.  It was also the first time most people ever had the chance to own movies stored in the original theatrical aspect rations which was a major change compared to VHS.

It's been a long time since I've even thought about laserdiscs.  Talk about a blast from the past. LOL

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CharlieMurphy

For the record, I got Emby 4.7.0.11 stuck by pressing home key on the Roku yesterday. It stayed stuck for hours and I left it that way overnight. I didn't realize I had a script setup to pull latest Docker images and also restart Emby every night on this particular server. I had that setup because at the time we were using Roku and emby was filling my transcode drive, I have since switched to CCwGTV's. The script put it back on the 'latest' Emby server relase (4.6.4.0).

I've commented my script out from crontab so that won't happen again. Back on 4.7.0.11 beta now. Is there anything I can do to help with my logs? Should I turn on debug logging and recreate the issue?

I had a laugh when I realized I am essentially DoSing my server with the home button on Roku. :P I can call myself a hacker now? jk jk

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CharlieMurphy

Sorry to double post but consider that when this happens, at least sometimes if not every time, the server also writes to the transcode folder endlessly. If that folder is on a drive shared with any other service, it shuts them down by filling the drive (this has happened to me). By default, Emby transcodes to the system drive. What happens when system drives get completely filled is never good and in my experience can lead to a situation where the computer can't even boot.

What this means to me is that anyone with access to Emby can use Roku's home button to completely kill a server. If it failed to boot beyond GRUB, this could create a situation where I have to go get my headless server and put a graphics card in it to get it going again.

Edited by CharlieMurphy
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The best thing to do is just keep testing 11 and if you find a situation you can reproduce then post in the Server forum in the Testing area with the current server log file.
That will give Luke a chance to review it.

Thanks for helping to test this on 11 beta!

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BillOatman
On 9/15/2021 at 5:08 AM, cayars said:

Hi, this can happen when apps are closed or shutdown without exiting playback first.  The server doesn't get a playback stop command so the stream is technically left open and is counted by Emby.

However with an m3u tuner since the server is likely not pulling the stream anymore the provider may not be counting it as an active stream. You could try removing the limit you entered making it unlimited and do away with this problem.  Technically (you can test this) if you try and open a 6 th stream you will likely get an error message back and Emby will display an error message.

Give this a try and let us know how this works out for you.

You need to be a little careful with this. Some providers react very badly if you even attempt to go over your stream limit. To the point they will put your account in "timeout" for an hour or even a day and lock you out.

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troyhough
On 9/17/2021 at 9:04 AM, martincom said:

Well, I determined why Emby is transcoding some channels and not others.  I'm gathering it cannot pass interlaced video.  The progressive scanned channels, 720P, are direct streaming.  the interlaced channels, 1380i and 480i, are being transcoded.

Utilizing the developer's guide that  CharlieMurphy provided the link to, I attempted to add parameters to the tuner url so it would do the transcoding.  However, I couldn't find a combination that would work with my HDHomerun Flex.  There is a check box within the Emby tuner setup I gather is to enable Emby to accomplish the same task, but it does not appear to have an effect.

i too have been fighting with some Roku devices that will not Direct Play 1080i from my HDHomerun 4K. I don't have any devices here to test but my neighbor has a TCL TV and a onn TV, both with integrated Roku and neither will Direct Play 1080i channels from my HDHomerun.

 

Edited by troyhough
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