Subtitles

[crusher11 1101]

All my content is from legally purchased UHD, Blu-ray and DVD discs. My content therefore almost universally already has DVDSUB or PGSSUB subtitles.

I would like to avoid transcoding. Just as a general rule, quite frankly, but in the case of UHD a) my system can't actually transcode 4K HEVC and b) even if it could it'd strip HDR and the footage would look like ass.

So, I want non-transcoding subtitle formats.

"Turn off subtitle extraction and let it burn in the subtitles via transcoding" is therefore not helpful advice. I already have subtitles that can be burned in, the PGSSUB tracks that came with the disc. I'm looking for a transcode-free alternative to that. If I was happy to transcode, I'd just go with the embedded subs rather than going to the effort of downloading, adding, or converting anything and then trying to get it to work in Emby.

Therefore, simply disabling subtitle extraction doesn't help my situation in the slightest.

[Luke 42077]

If your system is not fast enough to extract on the fly, and you want to avoid transcoding, then the solution is to stick to external subtitles.

Or consider using an Emby app that can direct play more formats, such as Android/iOS/Emby Theater for Windows, etc.

[Ronstang 293]

I have almost 1000 legally owned Blu-Rays and DVDs and I keep all my subs.  For PGS subs if you have a Firestick or other Android TV device you can directly play them but only if you extract them....and then put them back into the MKV container.  If external Emby does not see them, only if they are in the container...but technically they are still external and they play fine.  DVDSUB are another issue.  Even they transcode on Android TV devices.  I myself would like to find a solution to this situation as I find it rather hilarious that DVDs have been around for what....30-35 years and still the subs are not supported in any of these devices.

[Carlo 4560]

Another alternative build into Emby is to download SRT subtitles for all your media.  Being text files they can be overlayed on the video by the client and would not require transcoding.

This would be the first option I'd explore even though it's not using something you already have (from ripping).  SRT are ideal for streaming media vs other sub types made for standalone disc players (DVD, Blu Ray).

[Ronstang 293]

The only problem with downloading SRT is they are hit or miss.  Some are OK, some are not because they seem like someone else was writing them because they don't match what is being said exactly.  SRTs usually are not re-edited to add back in capitalization and punctuation etc so if it was just run through OCR and left it's Ok but not correct. Depending upon the source they can be out of sync.  I turned off automatic subtitle downloading in Emby because it almost never gets it right and there is no option to get the FPS correct so Subtitles.org often delivers subs that are unusable or so much work to correct it isn't worth it for me.  

[Carlo 4560]

That can certainly be true.  All my files are touched and will never have a hash code matching.

What I generally find is that most SRT work well for me but might need a slight adjust to sync them better to my particular rip. But since most movies are the same, once you get the starting offset correct they usually work well.

[pwhodges 2012]

1 hour ago, cayars said:

But since most movies are the same, once you get the starting offset correct they usually work well.

Perhaps you have little experience of the PAL speedup?!  (in which PAL DVDs of 24fps films get to be played at 25fps with no other change).

Paul

[Carlo 4560]

Sure but doesn't really make that much different as 5 minutes into the movie is 5 minutes.  The movies start and end at the same time.

Subs don't have to be perfectly aligned to the split second. You just need to be able to follow the dialog and know what's going on (at least the way I use them).

[crusher11 1101]

2 hours ago, cayars said:

Sure but doesn't really make that much different as 5 minutes into the movie is 5 minutes.  The movies start and end at the same time.

...no they don't. That's the entire point. PAL movies are roughly five minutes shorter than their NTSC equivalents, assuming a movie of approximately two hours.

[Carlo 4560]

I could be wrong here as I live in NTSC land and not PAL so I usually wouldn't encounter this.  So correct me if I'm wrong.

If it's an NTSC movie converted to PAL there would be about a 4% difference but there are utils to correct the subtitle timing for this but you can also usually find PAL version of the subs as well (at least for English). But this was mostly a DVD thing and doesn't apply to streaming or Blu Ray conversions usually.

So I'm asking how much this is still a problem? I myself have little DVD quality or SD content left except for very old movies.

But yes I can see how the SRT approach isn't as clean as I was originally thinking.

Thanks guys.

[PenkethBoy 2068]

The Subtitle Edit programme allows you via the synchronisation menu to adjust your sub speed

and has the options to change frame rate or change speed of the subtitles - which i believe should allow you to fix the ntsc vs Pal issue

and you can do a batch process once you find the correct settings that work for you

[pwhodges 2012]

3 hours ago, cayars said:

So I'm asking how much this is still a problem? I myself have little DVD quality or SD content left except for very old movies.

Here in the UK, if I go to a shop for a disc (a rare event, I admit, as delivery services are so much easier, having more stock) I will typically see twice as many DVDs on display than BDs.

However, these days they are often NTSC (which removes the issue at the cost of lower resolution) because non-US players have nearly always supported both standards - it's only in the US you commonly get players that only support one standard (i.e. not PAL).

2 hours ago, PenkethBoy said:

you can do a batch process once you find the correct settings that work for you

I can't see that working well, though.  Typically there will be different distributor logos at the start meaning that you will still need to adjust the timing individually, and often there are places within the film (reel changes? - who knows...) where there is a distinct slip in the timing, too.  I find it easier and quicker to do OCR on the on-disc subs, now that I have found a program that does it faster and better than the OCR built into Subtitle Edit (it's old, it's got a weird interface, and it requires more initial hand-holding, but then it just flies).

Paul

[PenkethBoy 2068]

sigh - each movie will be different yes - but for Tv series/seasons its very likely to be the same

[crusher11 1101]

Yeah, the subs I've downloaded for my (US, and thus NTSC) Laurel and Hardy box set don't sync at all. If I point sync them at beginning and end, the middle is still out by several seconds in spots.

 

[PenkethBoy 2068]

more work needed by you then to line them up

[crusher11 1101]

2 hours ago, pwhodges said:

now that I have found a program that does it faster and better than the OCR built into Subtitle Edit (it's old, it's got a weird interface, and it requires more initial hand-holding, but then it just flies).

 

Does that work with Blu-rays as well? I'm not sure how to create a sup/idx/bin file from the subs in my MKVs.

[pwhodges 2012]

Yes, it does Blu-ray PGS subs as well as DVD Vobsubs.  I extract them first using an equivalent of MKVCleaver (mine is called Inviska, but the web site vanished, and all the download links went to it), and with practice generating the SRT subs gets very slick.  I did a series of 55 episodes in less than two 2 hours.

PGS subs are a single file when extracted, unlike VOBSUBs.

Paul

Edited January 1, 2021 by pwhodges

[Ronstang 293]

I found Inviska MKV Extract Paul, Is that the program? Because I'd really like a good solution to this as I have a growing colledtion of OLD TV shows and all are on DVD with DVDSUB for subtitles which means they have to be transcoded.....now some series, but not many, include SRT but these are CC only and although usable I would prefer standard subs.

[pwhodges 2012]

You found a download of the Inviska program?  Well done!  And do try that OCR program - it's really, really quirky, but I learnt how to drive it, and now can do it by rote.  

Paul

[Ronstang 293]

I have the Inviska Extract program Paul but nowhere do I see how to use it to create SRT subs.

[pwhodges 2012]

No, no!  The OCR program is called DVD Subextractor.  It can read subtitles directly from the disc, but I use it with extracted sup files.

You may find it hard to open the .sup file first time - it looks as if the File menu is the place to do it, but the "open subtitle file" option on that is grayed out.  You actually have to go to the Browse button and navigate to your file there (it remembers the directory, so if you are doing lots it's easy to move on):

Wrong:   

Right:     

The rest of the program interface is similarly weird, but once you've sussed it, you'll be fine.

Paul

[crusher11 1101]

I gave it a go with a couple of discs. With one, it was still asking me to manually identify about half the characters in each subtitle well over half an hour into the film. With the other, it assumed all commas were apostrophes and left weird spaces in the middle of a bunch of words so I had to go back over it in Subtitle Edit anyway. 

[Ronstang 293]

21 minutes ago, crusher11 said:

I gave it a go with a couple of discs. With one, it was still asking me to manually identify about half the characters in each subtitle well over half an hour into the film. With the other, it assumed all commas were apostrophes and left weird spaces in the middle of a bunch of words so I had to go back over it in Subtitle Edit anyway. 

Yeah, I found I actually had this program on my system and once I opened it I remembered I abandoned it because I don't have the time to make my own SRT subs unless the program is smart enough to make them without me manually editing them.....who has the time or patience for that?

[crusher11 1101]

Also, @Luke locked my previous thread before I could get an answer as to what happens when there are SRT and PGSSUB tracks for a film. How does Emby pick one? Is it smart enough to figure out what will direct play, or will it default to the first track it finds that fits the selected subtitle criteria?

 

[Ronstang 293]

2 hours ago, crusher11 said:

Also, @Luke locked my previous thread before I could get an answer as to what happens when there are SRT and PGSSUB tracks for a film. How does Emby pick one? Is it smart enough to figure out what will direct play, or will it default to the first track it finds that fits the selected subtitle criteria?

 

Where are these subs located?  PGS subs will only be picked up by Emby if they are inside the MKV or other container from my experience.  When I put them back into the container the appropriate PGS sub is marked as default by MKVToolNix (or I mark it)  inside the MKV and that is also what shows by default in Emby.  If I have external SRT subs as the same time as the PGS inside the MKV the default one in the MKV is still the default in Emby.  When the subs are external I am not sure about this but I think it may make the first sub based on file names the default.  In all my movies with multiple SRT or other subs the alphabetical order in the folder is the order in which they show in Emby.  I have not turned subtitles to on by default in the server so I don't know if Emby picks the first available sub or not.

And I just checked and if you have and SRT file like the one generated by MCEBuddy when it extracts it with CCExtractor and you put it into the MKV or other container then that becomes the default....so essentially subs in the container come first and the default in the container becomes the default in Emby.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Ronstang