MSI2017 48 Posted January 14, 2023 Posted January 14, 2023 26 minutes ago, rbjtech said: I never said dvhe 8.06 is not official - it is as it's listed in their profile documentation. I said that people are hacking files together from streaming sources - NF as an example stream DV5 and HDR10 - they do not stream DV8. People record both and then attempt to pair them together using unofficial tools to make a DV8 (to give both DV and fallback to HDR10). There is nothing 'official' about that final file .. Streaming giants stream the best version you can play - they will stream DV5 if your system is DV compatible - If it's not, they will stream the HDR10 version. They will not waste bandwidth streaming 'both' options and let the client 'downgrade' - thus unofficial means to create the DV8 file. This is also the reason you see very little issue on DV7 files - they are DV with HDR10 as fallback, but they are ripped from official sources - but even those are not 100% pure DV, the same as you would get from the UHD Disk. DV appears a mess to the end user if they are using unofficial media files - but for anybody using streaming services or UHD Disk's - DV just 'works'. Yeah well that last part seems to have it in for me. My BluRay rips always fallback to HDR10 (recently fixed that) and especially netflix on my MacBook will only kick in DV whenever it wants and it never ever goes to 4k
MSI2017 48 Posted January 14, 2023 Posted January 14, 2023 1 hour ago, rbjtech said: I never said dvhe 8.06 is not official - it is as it's listed in their profile documentation. I said that people are hacking files together from streaming sources - NF as an example stream DV5 and HDR10 - they do not stream DV8. People record both and then attempt to pair them together using unofficial tools to make a DV8 (to give both DV and fallback to HDR10). There is nothing 'official' about that final file .. Streaming giants stream the best version you can play - they will stream DV5 if your system is DV compatible - If it's not, they will stream the HDR10 version. They will not waste bandwidth streaming 'both' options and let the client 'downgrade' - thus unofficial means to create the DV8 file. This is also the reason you see very little issue on DV7 files - they are DV with HDR10 as fallback, but they are ripped from official sources - but even those are not 100% pure DV, the same as you would get from the UHD Disk. DV appears a mess to the end user if they are using unofficial media files - but for anybody using streaming services or UHD Disk's - DV just 'works'. Actually I sortof doubt it. Since otherwise these files would be twice as big, but usually they are not. I believe streaming providers might store in 8.1 and have software to convert to 5. There's a lot of DoVi conversion/transcoding software the public doesn't have access to. My MacBook can correctly tonemap profile 5 to HDR10 and SDR for example
rbjtech 5284 Posted January 15, 2023 Posted January 15, 2023 15 hours ago, MSI2017 said: Actually I sortof doubt it. Since otherwise these files would be twice as big, but usually they are not. I believe streaming providers might store in 8.1 and have software to convert to 5. There's a lot of DoVi conversion/transcoding software the public doesn't have access to. My MacBook can correctly tonemap profile 5 to HDR10 and SDR for example Again, I never said they literally add them together. DV is all about 'layers' - streaming uses LLDV which is different to UHD DV for example (full fat DV). There are lots of docs out on the internet explaining the difference - but it will make your head ache as it's unnecessarily complex - thanks Dolby The short version is you need all the dots to join up to successfully fully play dv - source > client > display. if they do not, then you'll get a 'version' of HDR/DV - not necessarily the full experience.
MSI2017 48 Posted January 15, 2023 Posted January 15, 2023 26 minutes ago, rbjtech said: Again, I never said they literally add them together. DV is all about 'layers' - streaming uses LLDV which is different to UHD DV for example (full fat DV). There are lots of docs out on the internet explaining the difference - but it will make your head ache as it's unnecessarily complex - thanks Dolby The short version is you need all the dots to join up to successfully fully play dv - source > client > display. if they do not, then you'll get a 'version' of HDR/DV - not necessarily the full experience. Yeah its such a rabbit hole. DV on my LG OLED is pretty doable but getting it too work on a MacBook is hell 1
justinrh 259 Posted January 25, 2023 Posted January 25, 2023 Any way I can 'like' this post 1,000 times? This is really needed and seems to be fundamental.
Happy2Play 9780 Posted January 25, 2023 Posted January 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, justinrh said: Any way I can 'like' this post 1,000 times? This is really needed and seems to be fundamental. 1
MSI2017 48 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 1 minute ago, Luke said: Oeh that's awesome, can't wait! Any ETA on release? Thanks Luke 1
neik 873 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) Will DV profiles be available as well or will it be a generic DV tag? Edited March 7, 2023 by neik 1
Cheesegeezer 3104 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 3 hours ago, Luke said: Just some advice. I would shorten that the to DV level… Dolby Vision as text looks great but is it 5.7 or 8, its quite important to identify those and then you can also handle them. its all feedback from the MediaInfo plugin thread and testing so great to see you fellas on it
Cheesegeezer 3104 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 3 hours ago, MSI2017 said: Oeh that's awesome, can't wait! Any ETA on release? Thanks Luke This will be more than likely in 4.8 release
softworkz 5066 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Cheesegeezer said: Dolby Vision as text looks great but is it 5.7 or 8, its quite important to identify those and then you can also handle them I agree. The text "Dolby Vision" alone is not useful at all. Of course it also can't be expected that many will know about the meaning of the profile numbers. Whether it's HDR10 compatible or proprietary would be the most important information, I think. 1
Cheesegeezer 3104 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, softworkz said: I agree. The text "Dolby Vision" alone is not useful at all. Of course it also can't be expected that many will know about the meaning of the profile numbers. Whether it's HDR10 compatible or proprietary would be the most important information, I think. People that are investing into a DV TV will know what they are buying and will understand what they get from each level so.. I’m gonna throw your assumption out the door. those that just buy a 309-600 dollar, pound, euro tv are there to provide a tv to watch dancing on ice or some shit like that… them that know… know… and them that know want to know.
softworkz 5066 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Cheesegeezer said: People that are investing into a DV TV will know what they are buying and will understand what they get from each level I don't buy that. Even myself already forgot which is which even though I implemented the detection. 12 minutes ago, softworkz said: Whether it's HDR10 compatible or proprietary would be the most important information I'm saying that because that's the information on which it depends whether Emby can show it with tone mapping on non-DV capable devices. 2 1
MSI2017 48 Posted March 7, 2023 Posted March 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, softworkz said: I don't buy that. Even myself already forgot which is which even though I implemented the detection. I'm saying that because that's the information on which it depends whether Emby can show it with tone mapping on non-DV capable devices. Related to this, will DV profile 5 tonemapping be implemented together with this? Seems like a logical pair
rbjtech 5284 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 (edited) As the plugin has the option to - I think Emby needs to display all the HDR profiles available as this likely means a lot more than the DV 'Profile' (to the average user - AV Enthusiasts will want to see the profile etc - they can use the Plugin .. ) So if it's DV7 or DV8 - then it should say 'DV+HDR10' (ie it WILL tonemap & transcode ok) - if it's DV5 - then it should just say 'DV Only' (maybe) - and consequently will not tm or transcode ok. This should give the users a 'Clue' - when they try and play DV on their non-DV compatible TV etc. Edited March 8, 2023 by rbjtech 2 1
softworkz 5066 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 31 minutes ago, rbjtech said: This should give the users a 'Clue' - when they try and play DV on their non-DV compatible TV etc. Exactly. Just printing "DV" is neither helpful for users (even more confusing) nor does it help us supporting and explaining what's happening and why. The information is available internally in all detail, it's just a matter of displaying it... 1
MSI2017 48 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 13 hours ago, Cheesegeezer said: Just some advice. I would shorten that the to DV level… Dolby Vision as text looks great but is it 5.7 or 8, its quite important to identify those and then you can also handle them. its all feedback from the MediaInfo plugin thread and testing so great to see you fellas on it 1 minute ago, softworkz said: Exactly. Just printing "DV" is neither helpful for users (even more confusing) nor does it help us supporting and explaining what's happening and why. The information is available internally in all detail, it's just a matter of displaying it... Personally, I would maybe like to see the DV logo and just write the profile behind in text. That would look quite slick and make it quite easy to see at a glance! 1
MSI2017 48 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 35 minutes ago, rbjtech said: As the plugin has the option to - I think Emby needs to display all the HDR profiles available as this likely means a lot more than the DV 'Profile' (to the average user - AV Enthusiasts will want to see the profile etc - they can use the Plugin .. ) So if it's DV7 or DV8 - then it should say 'DV+HDR10' (ie it WILL tonemap & transcode ok) - if it's DV5 - then it should just say 'DV Only' (maybe) - and consequently will not tm or transcode ok. This should give the users a 'Clue' - when they try and play DV on their non-DV compatible TV etc. DV p5 can also be tonemapped, just has to be implemented.
MSI2017 48 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 Just now, softworkz said: Yes, it "just" needs to be implemented. I didn't mean it like that, I just meant that it is not impossible like many people think. Also the Jellyfin team have opensourced and explained how they did P5 tonemapping so that might make it more easy.
Cheesegeezer 3104 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 54 minutes ago, rbjtech said: As the plugin has the option to - I think Emby needs to display all the HDR profiles available as this likely means a lot more than the DV 'Profile' (to the average user - AV Enthusiasts will want to see the profile etc - they can use the Plugin .. ) you mean that amazing plugin that even after all the updates and at least 6mths of being released,... we are still learning stuff about all the possible combinations of Formats and identification. HAHAHA it really is quite a mine field...
softworkz 5066 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, MSI2017 said: I didn't mean it like that, I just meant that it is not impossible like many people think. Also the Jellyfin team have opensourced and explained how they did P5 tonemapping so that might make it more easy. It has been somewhat impossible for quite a while because there doesn't exist a public specification. Eventually, it wasn't JF but Niklas Haas (libplacebo) who did all the reverse engineering and was able to come up with a working implementation in libplacebo (using Vulkan hw context), that's why MPV player was the first which could do it. The others just ported that implementation - so kudos to whom it actually deserves. When we do it, though, we don't just want a partial solution that works under specific conditions only, but something that is working for all users - which means: all hwa's and possibly CPU (using vector extensions like sse, avx, ...). "All hwa's" means at least CUDA and OpenCL, so we're talking about three implementations. The difficulty is not in porting the logic but doing it in a fast and performant way. This takes time. You crawl into a dark cave for a few weeks until you get it all perfect. Or you wait until somebody else does it... Edited March 8, 2023 by softworkz 2 1
MSI2017 48 Posted March 8, 2023 Posted March 8, 2023 6 minutes ago, softworkz said: It has been somewhat impossible for quite a while because there doesn't exist a public specification. Eventually, it wasn't JF but Niklas Haas (libplacebo) who did all the reverse engineering and was able to come up with a working implementation in libplacebo (using Vulkan hw context), that's why MPV player was the first which could do it. The others just ported that implementation - so kudos to whom it actually deserves. When we do it, though, we don't just want a partial solution that works under specific conditions only, but something that is working for all users - which means: all hwa's and possibly CPU (using vector extensions like sse, avx, ...). "All hwa's" means at least CUDA and OpenCL, so we're talking about three implementations. The difficulty is not in porting the logic but doing it in a fast and performant way. This takes time. You crawl into a dark cave for a few weeks until you get it all perfect. Or you wait until somebody else does it... That makes sense, thanks for the explanation! Somewhat related to this, but recently I have noticed that HDR tonemapping (which finally looks pretty close now that I've got the diagnostic menu) is almost perfect when using it on my MacBook (client) but when watching on a Windows machine it tends to be a bit too bright? Any troubleshooting steps I could try. I've also had it just die on a chromecast but I've mentioned that in a separate topic so that is less important.
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