Stutter when playing back on new Xbox One App 2.201.70.0

[bandit8623 213]

12 hours ago, Luke said:

Hi guys,

At the last minute when promoting our new windows app from beta to public, hevc support was denied by Microsoft. Here is their explanation:

Therefore the best way to get hevc supported as quickly as possible is to voice your feedback to Microsoft about this publicly. Thanks everyone.

if someone makes a forum post or feedback hub lets share that and get it upvoted

[bandit8623 213]

5 hours ago, AndyBak said:

Seems like such a strange time of year to have the app released, zero support to be able to address any issues.

Now got a media system that is totally useless for the next unknown months and over the holiday season.  

 

use the web version for now? 

Edited December 19, 2024 by bandit8623

[bandit8623 213]

2 hours ago, softworkz said:

I wanna pick up some of the question that have come up here.

A good question was about why the previous app could play HEVC. The reason for that is that the capability we are talking about is named "hevcPlayback" but often also described as "4k  video playback" or "4k hevc playback". In fact it does not disable hevc playback when it's absent, but instead, when it's absent, you can't smoothly play 4k video. What it does when enabled is that it grants 1 GB more memory and more CPU cores to the app. I have tested and confirmed this at a very early stage and also researched other players like vlc or kodi, which are using that capability as well on xbox, and without that you essentially cannot watch 4k videos. 
Doesn't that contradict to the codec licensing and budget explanation? At first I thought so, but then I remembered a price list from Dolby about DV license fees for TV manufacturers and the had different prices depending on whether it's a 4k tv or not (4k factor like 3, 4 or 5x). The Xbox needs to have the ability to play HEVC video of course for use in apps or in the browser and it had that for a long time. This is needed for every Xbox without exception. A console like Xbox is a product where fractions of a penny matter, so it's quite plausible that MS have negotiated to pay the extra for 4k playback only those devices where it is actually used, and they are controlling that amount by limiting apps to those how really need it (1.) and by available budget (2), where we obviously fall under the latter.

That leads to the question why the new Emby Xbox app doesn't play any HEVC at all, not even non-4k? 

Each certification cycle took about 2-3 days. We had 2 rejections about details, and then came the rejection of the hevcPlayback capability, which came as a shock and totally unexpected. Even though we reached out to the store  through multiple channels, the rejection message was very determined and different from other rejection messages in one important point: it said: please try early next year again, which indicated  that it's not a decision based on policies or personal assessment of the reviewer, but due to other circumstances and something that can hardly be turned. To keep things going, we had to remove that capability and resubmit.
But the problem is this: ever since that test from last year, we had  that capability declared for the app, all-time during development and throughout the beta. Which means in turn: we don't have the slightest idea what will happen when it's removed. Where to draw the line between direct play and transcoding? It's not as easy as going by resolution (4k or not). The tests had shown that the bandwidth of videos has a huge influence: even with that capabillity, many 4k videos don't play smoothly - i.,e. those with high bandwidths, and it looks like they have only tested 4k online streams like from Netflix&Co., but not any Bluray-to-mkv rips with 100Mbps. That's why we couldn't take it for granted that it can properly play all kinds of FHD videos. Or whether iit might tend to crash in such cases  - all this totally unknown, and hence something that you cannot publish without one or more beta cycles (and removing the capability from the beta as well, not knowing whether it might be rejected there as well when trying to re-add.

While quality is important and the way it plays is important, there are still some higher priorities than these two: 1. Does it play yes/no? 2 Does it play smoothly so that it's watchable ?
So, under the given constraints and situation, the only correct decision was to (temporarily!) disable HEVC playback entirely and let the server transcode it to H.264, instead. It's bitter having to do this after all the work, but there was no other choice in this moment, until we get to a plan how to proceed.

There's a range of options and ideas, but we need to get sorted, think about it, wait for response to another message from the store and also still waiting for the ongoing certification of the store listings update to complete. 

Thanks and sorry.

App is damn good! thanks for this and good work.

Has this changed your guys stance on strictly using windows store  ?

[hemandk 12]

3 hours ago, softworkz said:

I wanna pick up some of the question that have come up here.

A good question was about why the previous app could play HEVC. The reason for that is that the capability we are talking about is named "hevcPlayback" but often also described as "4k  video playback" or "4k hevc playback". In fact it does not disable hevc playback when it's absent, but instead, when it's absent, you can't smoothly play 4k video. What it does when enabled is that it grants 1 GB more memory and more CPU cores to the app. I have tested and confirmed this at a very early stage and also researched other players like vlc or kodi, which are using that capability as well on xbox, and without that you essentially cannot watch 4k videos. 
Doesn't that contradict to the codec licensing and budget explanation? At first I thought so, but then I remembered a price list from Dolby about DV license fees for TV manufacturers and the had different prices depending on whether it's a 4k tv or not (4k factor like 3, 4 or 5x). The Xbox needs to have the ability to play HEVC video of course for use in apps or in the browser and it had that for a long time. This is needed for every Xbox without exception. A console like Xbox is a product where fractions of a penny matter, so it's quite plausible that MS have negotiated to pay the extra for 4k playback only those devices where it is actually used, and they are controlling that amount by limiting apps to those how really need it (1.) and by available budget (2), where we obviously fall under the latter.

That leads to the question why the new Emby Xbox app doesn't play any HEVC at all, not even non-4k? 

Each certification cycle took about 2-3 days. We had 2 rejections about details, and then came the rejection of the hevcPlayback capability, which came as a shock and totally unexpected. Even though we reached out to the store  through multiple channels, the rejection message was very determined and different from other rejection messages in one important point: it said: please try early next year again, which indicated  that it's not a decision based on policies or personal assessment of the reviewer, but due to other circumstances and something that can hardly be turned. To keep things going, we had to remove that capability and resubmit.
But the problem is this: ever since that test from last year, we had  that capability declared for the app, all-time during development and throughout the beta. Which means in turn: we don't have the slightest idea what will happen when it's removed. Where to draw the line between direct play and transcoding? It's not as easy as going by resolution (4k or not). The tests had shown that the bandwidth of videos has a huge influence: even with that capabillity, many 4k videos don't play smoothly - i.,e. those with high bandwidths, and it looks like they have only tested 4k online streams like from Netflix&Co., but not any Bluray-to-mkv rips with 100Mbps. That's why we couldn't take it for granted that it can properly play all kinds of FHD videos. Or whether iit might tend to crash in such cases  - all this totally unknown, and hence something that you cannot publish without one or more beta cycles (and removing the capability from the beta as well, not knowing whether it might be rejected there as well when trying to re-add.

While quality is important and the way it plays is important, there are still some higher priorities than these two: 1. Does it play yes/no? 2 Does it play smoothly so that it's watchable ?
So, under the given constraints and situation, the only correct decision was to (temporarily!) disable HEVC playback entirely and let the server transcode it to H.264, instead. It's bitter having to do this after all the work, but there was no other choice in this moment, until we get to a plan how to proceed.

There's a range of options and ideas, but we need to get sorted, think about it, wait for response to another message from the store and also still waiting for the ongoing certification of the store listings update to complete. 

Thanks and sorry.

Thanks for the explanation and the hard work.

If I understand it correctly H264 should work but H264 files also stutters like crazy on my Xbox One S. 

So is that the same issue or seperate problem?

[softworkz 5066]

4 minutes ago, hemandk said:

If I understand it correctly H264 should work but H264 files also stutters like crazy on my Xbox One S. 

So is that the same issue or seperate problem?

Is this 4k H264? Transcoded? And which bandwidth?
If it produces an ffmpeg log at the server, please post this.

[hemandk 12]

1 minute ago, softworkz said:

Is this 4k H264? Transcoded? And which bandwidth?
If it produces an ffmpeg log at the server, please post this.

No this is 720P and 1080P H264 that stutters while direct playing. My HEVC files that stutters are also only 1080P.

This also happens on my recorded files which are H264 720P or 1080I.

The same files was working before the app, but now there are stutters.

You want a server log, cause that seems to be the only thing there is. Also recorded a video of it with my phone

[softworkz 5066]

@hemandk - this pretty much sounds like what @jasonwilliams was seeing in the beta - as the oinly one.

So far that's an unsolved mystery. Maybe you two can find out what you have in common what the others don't have...

[QuarkZ 14]

So, to echo someone else here, still no releasing the app on the side with full functionality?

[Jdiesel 1431]

2 minutes ago, QuarkZ said:

So, to echo someone else here, still no releasing the app on the side with full functionality?

Is there even a way to side-load Xbox apps? I don't own one but I'm curious. The Windows app does have full functionality if you were imply that it shouldn't be release through the Windows Store.

[QuarkZ 14]

2 minutes ago, Jdiesel said:

Is there even a way to side-load Xbox apps? I don't own one but I'm curious. The Windows app does have full functionality if you were imply that it shouldn't be release through the Windows Store.

My bad, I missed the part that it impacted only the xbox, sorry!

[oceanclub 12]

There's allegedly a HEVC purchasable add-on for Xbox. Would owning that have any impact? I'm assuming not...

[softworkz 5066]

7 hours ago, Jdiesel said:

Is there even a way to side-load Xbox apps?

No. Everything on the xbox is extemely shielded (probably to prevent hacking). Sideloading is not possible. There's a developer mode, but you also need to register as a partner for being able to use it, and in devloper mode, you don't see the dashboard and you cannot launch apps or games that you have - only the apps which you are uploading - so that's not a way for anybody else than developers.

[softworkz 5066]

7 hours ago, oceanclub said:

There's allegedly a HEVC purchasable add-on for Xbox. Would owning that have any impact? I'm assuming not...

No.

[PIkeoftheLake 14]

22 hours ago, hemandk said:

No this is 720P and 1080P H264 that stutters while direct playing. My HEVC files that stutters are also only 1080P.

This also happens on my recorded files which are H264 720P or 1080I.

The same files was working before the app, but now there are stutters.

You want a server log, cause that seems to be the only thing there is. Also recorded a video of it with my phone

This is my experience too.  Absolutely nothing in my library plays without stuttering.  Sometimes it is a mild stutter that increases and other times the stutter is right there from the start.

The green screen happens when I start a file too. Very similar to Kodi when hardware acceleration is turned on.  Turning off hardware acceleration on Kodi helps bit I can't find the equivalent with Emby.

I'm running a number of Xbox one s consoles over a hardwired cat 6 network.

My whole setup is completely broken.

[JuiceyD 1]

having same issues on Xbox One as everyone else with the stuttering and green screen.  Completely unusable.  How can I unroll the update? Can you at least release the previous version as a separate app in the Xbox store?  Pretty bad QA, not happy at all

[hemandk 12]

@softworkzso now we are not only two people with this problem 

So can you try to look into the issues?

@JuiceyDare you running Xbox One S/X as well?

[Alymere 1]

I'm running two X Box One, I updated one of them and that now stutters on all hevc files and it's struggling using the web app. The second one I prevented the update and that's working fine.  Unfortunately the first one is in the cinema room so hopefully this will get fixed soon.

[hemandk 12]

8 minutes ago, Alymere said:

I'm running two X Box One, I updated one of them and that now stutters on all hevc files and it's struggling using the web app. The second one I prevented the update and that's working fine.  Unfortunately the first one is in the cinema room so hopefully this will get fixed soon.

Do you also have problems with H264 files?

[Alymere 1]

I've just tested a H264 1080p file on the first updated Xbox and I got the green screen fir a few seconds and then it started playing but stuttering and unwatchable.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Alymere

[DimitarCC 41]

@softworkz@Luke What about the problems i mentioned? They are not connected with HEVC at all.

 

On XBox series X H264 plays fine...No issues BUT...

- Subtitles are so small and settings of them is not respected!!! That is very annoying... i see always white subtitles with solid black background....

- UI constantly shows tooltips like i am running it on windows and hover with mouse (But i am with RCU on xbox so there should not be tooltips)

- as for the RCU (original xbox one remote) button mapping is strange (seems that is designed for windows) and dont respect most of the buttons on xbox remote.

- The design is not changed at all. That was big flaw in xbox version of the app...That huge buttons and not utilized space is awful! Why not make it near the new windows style (since xbox is running a windows like version there should be not licensing issues)

- There is no passthrough at all so if my xbox is set up to output Stereo for example no DTS sound came out even if passthrough is on. On old app that was working correctly.

 

Lets assume you can control the MS issue with HEVC but those issues above are something else and have to be fixed...Now the app is unusable on xbox even for non HEVC videos since my native language is not English so i need subtitles which are almost not usable now. And also i need correct sound output.

I have a feeling development is focused on windows version and nothing is done for XBOX except switch the player which brakes everything..

If i were accepted to the beta i would report that issues long before you to release...    

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by DimitarCC

[softworkz 5066]

12 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

What about the problems i mentioned? They are not connected with HEVC at all.

What the HEVC capability does is to grant 1GB additional memory and more CPU cores to the app, that's why it can also affect H.264.

The hw acceleration for H.264 is weak anyway. It's hardly possible possible to play 4k videos, even though the codec normally requires much less computational effort than HEVC, but it seems they've put no effort into testing and optimizing this.

18 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

- Subtitles are so small and settings of them is not respected!!! That is very annoying... i see always white subtitles with solid black background...

Let's look at an example. Please post the ffmpeg log from the server.

19 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

- as for the RCU (original xbox one remote) button mapping is strange (seems that is designed for windows) and dont respect most of the buttons on xbox remote.

Can you go to the remote control page under settings and test. Let me know which mappings are wrong.

20 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

- The design is not changed at all. That was big flaw in xbox version of the app...That huge buttons and not utilized space is awful! Why not make it near the new windows style (since xbox is running a windows like version there should be not licensing issues)

The design is the same across all apps. There are several themes, but yes, they are all pretty much the same besides coloring. I have no influence on this, I'm afraid.
An ability for adjusting the UI zioom factor might be possible perhaps.

30 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

- There is no passthrough at all so if my xbox is set up to output Stereo for example no DTS sound came out even if passthrough is on

The Xbox can decode DTS and send uncompressed multi-channel audio via HDMI, which of course doesn't work when you set the output to Stereo.

32 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

I have a feeling development is focused on windows version and nothing is done for XBOX except switch the player which brakes everything..

If i were accepted to the beta i would report that issues long before you to release

There were just a few users with Xbox on the beta, unfortunately. 

We would have loved to onboard you - you just came too late.

[softworkz 5066]

51 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

The design is not changed at all. That was big flaw in xbox version of the app...That huge buttons and not utilized space is awful! Why not make it near the new windows style (since xbox is running a windows like version there should be not licensing issues)

The Windows theme could work on the Xbox, but it has one problem: It doesn't have styling for TV mode and the Xbox needs TV mode. 

There might be something coming...but it's not finished yet.

[oceanclub 12]

I'm still unclear why, once Microsoft refused permission for HEVC, that the new version _had_ to be published? The timing is particularly bad just before the holiday season where we normally get more use than normal from Emby.

[DimitarCC 41]

1 hour ago, softworkz said:

Let's look at an example. Please post the ffmpeg log from the server.

So there is no log from the server (strange)....

But here is how subs looks like

Although i have set yellow subtitles and transparent background in the settings....

1 hour ago, softworkz said:

Can you go to the remote control page under settings and test. Let me know which mappings are wrong.

Yes so...

Wrong mappings:

-  X -> channel down

-  Y -> channel up

-  A -> OK

What buttons from xbox rcu not work at all:

- play/pause

- stop

- REW

- FF

- prev chapter

- next chapter

- record

- page up/down

- volume up/down

What works correct:

- arrows

- B/Back

- OK

- numeric keys

 

2 hours ago, softworkz said:

The Xbox can decode DTS and send uncompressed multi-channel audio via HDMI, which of course doesn't work when you set the output to Stereo.

OK. But in the old app passthrough was working and even if xbox is set as stereo it passthrough DTS to the AVR

2 hours ago, softworkz said:

The design is the same across all apps. There are several themes, but yes, they are all pretty much the same besides coloring. I have no influence on this, I'm afraid.
An ability for adjusting the UI zioom factor might be possible perhaps.

I understand that but look at the screenshot

 

Marked with black area is unusable. Buttons are so big and takes most of the screen. Text on the other hand very small compared to the buttons.

....

[softworkz 5066]

2 minutes ago, DimitarCC said:

Marked with black area is unusable. Buttons are so big and takes most of the screen. Text on the other hand very small compared to the buttons.

@Luke