Why does Emby make it so difficult to discover media?

[rbjtech 5284]

So much is 'possible' and free/open lists are available from trakt or mdb - so the list is not the difficult part - as said earlier in this thread. https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/134058-why-does-emby-make-it-so-difficult-to-discover-media/#findComment-1403559

What IS difficult is how to present the content of those lists/collections/playlists - Plex and frankly all other media platforms/players (netflix/prime etc) seems to have no issues doing this - Emby just needs to follow.   The request for smartplaylists was raised in 2016 I believe - and yet, we still cannot add dynamic or user selected content outside the fixed rows we currently have ...    

I'm hoping 4.9 brings this .. but then again, i've been waiting on this for years .. so who knows..

[ebr 16169]

The answer to the original question is one of simple design for purpose.  We designed Emby to be your personal media server and the other things you are comparing it to are designed to influence your behavior and sell you content.

We purposely didn't take this route from the beginning.  However, some happy medium is probably the right answer and the smart playlists will be the first step.  This will allow each server admin to "sell" to their own users in some fashion.

[Jdiesel 1431]

Choice overload is a cognitive impairment that occurs when a person is presented with too many options and has difficulty making a choice.  This can result in a decision paralysis or general dissatisfaction with your choices. The solution, to reduce the number of option.

What does this have to do with Emby? A lot actually. How we interact with our media is heavily influenced by the UI. It can be the difference between starting a new series and watching The Office for the 20th time, or finding a movie to watch that will be mutually enjoyed by the the group or audience.

If you want to find something to watch you will have much more success choosing a movie or show from a small random selection of 10-20 options versus a massive pile in the hundreds or even thousands. With the latter, you become exhausted before you even view all the options. This is compounded when you aren't able to view important information like the synopsis without going into a sub menu for each option. People are fickle and have a short attention span. We get satisfaction out of making easy choices.

Edited November 28, 2024 by Jdiesel

[242Movies 26]

Is there an alternative to smart playlists that won't require another 4 years to implement?

Could the Emby team implement the MDBList plugin that a user on here developed and make it easier for a novice to use without using python through a command line?

[rbjtech 5284]

43 minutes ago, ebr said:

The answer to the original question is one of simple design for purpose.  We designed Emby to be your personal media server and the other things you are comparing it to are designed to influence your behavior and sell you content.

Sure.  Maybe you misunderstand how the external lists are used.    They are not presented verbatim - they only show what you have available in your 'personal' media collection.

So if the MDB list is 'classic films from the 80's' and you have lets say 5 of them available - then that is all it will show.

Today - the equivalent in Emby will be a lesson in frustration - adding a filter,  then individually adding the years from 1980 to 1989.   And then when done - remembering to remove all the filters ...     Seriously - do Emby not see this as a huge functional gap to not even being able to 'Save' this filter for re-use ?

43 minutes ago, ebr said:

However, some happy medium is probably the right answer and the smart playlists will be the first step.  This will allow each server admin to "sell" to their own users in some fashion.

maybe you miss the point - this is the USER deciding what they want to see.   The 'Admin' is not trying to force anything.   Once they have a tailored 'smart playlist' where you can actually combine useful attributes (removed Genres, AND/OR items etc) then this will REPLACE the entire previous rows.

Edited November 28, 2024 by rbjtech

[ebr 16169]

1 hour ago, rbjtech said:

Sure.  Maybe you misunderstand how the external lists are used.    They are not presented verbatim - they only show what you have available in your 'personal' media collection.

So if the MDB list is 'classic films from the 80's' and you have lets say 5 of them available - then that is all it will show.

Today - the equivalent in Emby will be a lesson in frustration - adding a filter,  then individually adding the years from 1980 to 1989.   And then when done - remembering to remove all the filters ...     Seriously - do Emby not see this as a huge functional gap to not even being able to 'Save' this filter for re-use ?

maybe you miss the point - this is the USER deciding what they want to see.   The 'Admin' is not trying to force anything.   Once they have a tailored 'smart playlist' where you can actually combine useful attributes (removed Genres, AND/OR items etc) then this will REPLACE the entire previous rows.

I was simply answering the original question as to why the UI is designed as it is and also acknowledging that some adjustments to this original design are warranted.  Not sure why that would meet with such animosity but Happy Thanksgiving!

[arrbee99 1815]

3 hours ago, rbjtech said:

'this is the USER deciding what they want to see.   The 'Admin' is not trying to force anything.   Once they have a tailored 'smart playlist' where you can actually combine useful attributes (removed Genres, AND/OR items etc) then this will REPLACE the entire previous rows.'

If the average user is expected to do this, that to me doesn't sound like solving the question of users who don't use Emby because its too difficult to find stuff (assuming 'they' is the user ?)

[Ninho_NO 0]

On 11/26/2024 at 6:49 AM, rbjtech said:

Concordo 100% e é por isso que tanto tempo e esforço foram gastos neste fórum solicitando maneiras de fazer 'holofotes / recomendações / listas de reprodução inteligentes' NA TELA DE ABERTURA como uma linha simples.

Eu realmente espero que o 4.9 'Smart Playlists' tenha essa opção - se não, então é uma completa perda de tempo - porque ninguém fora dos administradores o usará porque o conteúdo que ele cria simplesmente não é facilmente acessível.

Com os novos scripts MDB colocando essas 'listas de reprodução' em coleções, juntamente com a capacidade de colocar coleções recentemente na tela inicial - isso realmente melhorou muito as coisas (em termos de acesso rápido e sem esforço ao conteúdo) MAS ainda é isso que o ADMINISTRADOR quer mostrar ao usuário - NÃO o que o usuário necessariamente quer ver.

Portanto, acredito que o próximo estágio lógico é que uma coleção OU conteúdo da lista de reprodução seja exibida como uma LINHA de itens configurados na seção Tela inicial para esse usuário.

Por exemplo - se eu quiser uma linha dos 'Trending TV Shows' (do trakt), devo ser capaz de configurá-la. Um simples menu de contexto suspenso de nível superior 'Adicionar à tela inicial' é tudo o que é necessário.

Espero muito que seja isso que o 4.9 e as 'Smart Playlists' possam fornecer - caso contrário, e simplesmente criar uma 'lista de reprodução' (enterrada nas listas de reprodução), essa nova funcionalidade será essencialmente desperdiçada, pois nenhum usuário poderá ver facilmente os resultados - e, portanto, os usuários não o usarão.

I think the library in this format is really cool, and I would definitely use it on my server. I’ve tried different ways to organize my media, such as dividing it by genres or even by platforms like Netflix, HBO, etc., but I always end up going back to keeping everything together because it becomes too confusing and hard to manage. Since I use my media in two different locations (personal hard drive and cloud), the best option for me would be these collections combined with the ability to have custom lists on the homepage.

[Jdiesel 1431]

1 hour ago, arrbee99 said:

If the average user is expected to do this, that to me doesn't sound like solving the question of users who don't use Emby because its too difficult to find stuff (assuming 'they' is the user ?)

Agreed! Different people will have different needs. The people interacting on these forums and administrating servers will have the know how and interest to set something up whereas the average user might not. My family only use Emby on their TV apps and have never once logged in on a web browser or mobile device, they have never interacted with the home screen customizations that are already in place, they have never changed any in app settings (quality being the biggest one), and they don't use favorites. If the option to include smart playlists is added it must have some server side control or at the very least NOT be app specific and be global to the user account. I would be content with logging into their accounts remotely and setting up their home screens for them. If I have no control over this as an admin, or remote access with their credentials, this feature will go unused by all but the power users. 

[arrbee99 1815]

I also have the problem of finding something to watch. It is often, as has been mentioned, oh just watch Rogue One again, or whatever.

Also think that actually Emby has some fairly easy ways to find stuff if people actually use them - Suggestions has been mentioned, or sometimes I sort by Date Added, or by Random. But that only (sort of) works if people are prepared to try out the Sorting or Filter options.

So, just to option to have /  move (undefined) things to the Home page would help - maybe something like Because You Watched on the Home screen.

Or learning to use Search a bit - tbh its not that difficult (or shouldn't be) to find all you Denzel Washington films.

[Jdiesel 1431]

This is a basic mock up of how I see this working. First is the addition of a Playlist Manager, a location where users can create and edit playlists using basic rules.

Examples such as:

 

 

 

The Plugin Manager would be unique to each user and be enabled/disable by the admin in the user access screen. Shared playlist between users are something to consider but that brings its own set of challenges. I think per user is much easier to accomplish without having to worry about privacy and all. One thing in the screenshots above that not shown is how the results are displayed i.e limit to number of results, sort order, randomized, etc. 

Once a playlist is saved it would be available as a selection in the home screen selection menu. Ideally this would be expanded beyond the current 7 spots. This would abide to the current limits of continue watching/latest media (16 items?). This means that some playlist with more than 16 items would need to refresh/reorder/randomize over time or when the app opens.

 

 

  

Edited November 29, 2024 by Jdiesel

[iiiJoe 62]

On 11/27/2024 at 9:11 PM, ebr said:

But they can only do that because they are watching everything that all of you are doing...

We don't do that so we have no way of knowing what is "trending" beyond what you, yourself are watching.

Exactly

[rbjtech 5284]

25 minutes ago, iiiJoe said:

Exactly

?

Clearly that is not the case.   Many sites have 'trending' information based on what people are watching - even the metadata media providers that emby use have this information available for free ... open tmdb, open thetvdb - what is on their front page ?

So you take this information - you then apply to the emby server (the important bit - there is zero point saying something is 'Trending' if its on somebody elses platform and you can't watch it) - and you display the results as a row - and call it 'Trending'.    You could also enhance the 'Trending' from your own server - you simply use the 'watched count' from the db - anything greater than, lets say 3 gets added to the 'Trending' list and gets removed after 2 weeks if no more watches increment ...

It's really not difficult to get the 'collection/playlist' of what's Trending (as an example) in your Emby Server - but displaying it as a user configurable 'Row' appears to be the blocker.

[242Movies 26]

There is another option to find content that just needs to be added to the home screen if Trending is too difficult

 

There is currently an option to add Latest Media and Recently Released movies to the Home screen

Could an option be added for Random Media?

 

If I sort my TV shows or Movies by Random it shows me a fresh set every time I open that library and that's helpful for discovering new content but it would be even more helpful if it were on the home screen

[Jdiesel 1431]

1 hour ago, 242Movies said:

There is another option to find content that just needs to be added to the home screen if Trending is too difficult

 

There is currently an option to add Latest Media and Recently Released movies to the Home screen

Could an option be added for Random Media?

 

If I sort my TV shows or Movies by Random it shows me a fresh set every time I open that library and that's helpful for discovering new content but it would be even more helpful if it were on the home screen

If I recall correctly this used to be a feature in @Speechles Roku app before he moved over to developing for official Emby Roku app.

[speechles 2055]

4 minutes ago, Jdiesel said:

If I recall correctly this used to be a feature in @Speechles Roku app before he moved over to developing for official Emby Roku app.

You are correct. The code section below shows which views were present.

https://github.com/speechles/BN-ONE/blob/6ae2f6305432f7779489e0ed8ab6f3111d3959c2/source/HomeScreen.brs#L2296-L2358

Then you could see singular views of all media types using these as sort types. You indeed remember correctly. These views were shown as tiles on the homescreen. When clicking those tiles it would take you to a single page with all media sorted as per the tile and displayed as rows for each type. The "I Feel Lucky" was basically just everything sorted by random allowing you to see new things.

I know the grid can be sorted by these types but it requires you first enter a library. The way Blue Neon Night worked had these globally for all libraries and types. So as you enter the views it displayed everything matching.

Perhaps this type of functionality should be brought back into all the Emby apps?

[iiiJoe 62]

18 hours ago, rbjtech said:

?

Clearly that is not the case.   Many sites have 'trending' information based on what people are watching - even the metadata media providers that emby use have this information available for free ... open tmdb, open thetvdb - what is on their front page ?

So you take this information - you then apply to the emby server (the important bit - there is zero point saying something is 'Trending' if its on somebody elses platform and you can't watch it) - and you display the results as a row - and call it 'Trending'.    You could also enhance the 'Trending' from your own server - you simply use the 'watched count' from the db - anything greater than, lets say 3 gets added to the 'Trending' list and gets removed after 2 weeks if no more watches increment ...

It's really not difficult to get the 'collection/playlist' of what's Trending (as an example) in your Emby Server - but displaying it as a user configurable 'Row' appears to be the blocker.

Doesn’t this ultimately require that someone somewhere, has to know what’s on your server to make these recommendations? Otherwise, making recommendations of media that is not on your server would make no sense….

[rbjtech 5284]

11 minutes ago, iiiJoe said:

Doesn’t this ultimately require that someone somewhere, has to know what’s on your server to make these recommendations? Otherwise, making recommendations of media that is not on your server would make no sense….

 

19 hours ago, rbjtech said:

So you take this information - you then apply to the emby server (the important bit - there is zero point saying something is 'Trending' if its on somebody elses platform and you can't watch it) 

Is this not what I said above ?

Emby knows what's on your server - so I'm not understanding why you cannot simply compare what's on an external 'Trending list' to what you have available on your server.   This is EXACTLY what MDB script does and exactly what the Trakt plugin has done for years.

The issue is we just can't present this information in a Home Page view - you have to go digging for it.   Having 'collections' as a front row certainly brings it closer - but I want the ability to present the collection itself on the home page.

So as an example - The MDB list 'Chrstmas Movies' has 876 movies on it (!) - link

I now compare that list to what I have on my own Emby Server - I have 18 of them - thus I now create a new collection with the 18 that I have - I don't care about the others, as I cannot play them...

The real issue is this collection is buried in 'collections' - which may take several clicks to get to.

During the holiday peroid - it would be great to simply show this as a home screen 'row' entitled 'Christmas Movies' ..

[242Movies 26]

IIRC a couple of years ago there was a seasonal theme that would display suggestions on the home page on Halloween and maybe on Christmas

I only saw it one year

[rbjtech 5284]

4 minutes ago, 242Movies said:

IIRC a couple of years ago there was a seasonal theme that would display suggestions on the home page on Halloween and maybe on Christmas

I only saw it one year

Still does on the AndroidTV/FireTV clients - it appeared for Halloween a few weeks ago - and as you say, dynamically added a row of all the Halloween related moves that I have. (as well as changing the colours and having a wolf howl whenever you opened the home screen ..  )   So we know it CAN be done - but why it's hidden from general use is frankly a bit of a mystery ...

I think it will transform the way my family will use emby - for the better.

Edited December 3, 2024 by rbjtech

[iiiJoe 62]

25 minutes ago, rbjtech said:

Emby knows what's on your server - so I'm not understanding why you cannot simply compare what's on an external 'Trending list' to what you have available on your server.   This is EXACTLY what MDB script does and exactly what the Trakt plugin has done for years.

As long as it’s one-way communication with MDB, Trakt or whomever, this would be great!

[rbjtech 5284]

14 minutes ago, iiiJoe said:

As long as it’s one-way communication with MDB, Trakt or whomever, this would be great!

Agreed.  I've seen the MDB code - it's just an API request for the list - nothing is ever posted back (ie no individual item tracking etc).  MDB are likely keeping a track of the API account that made the request - but that's fair enough to help them build a 'what's popular' list of lists .. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by rbjtech

[visproduction 315]

On 11/28/2024 at 7:44 AM, Jdiesel said:

Choice overload is a cognitive impairment that occurs when a person is presented with too many options and has difficulty making a choice. 

I think this is the most important issue.  There is too much choice.  But, there are already options in Emby to limit this.

1. Make more libraries and only give users perhaps 4 to 6 libraries each, targeted to their interests.  Doing this automatically would be nice, but it's a marketing type choice to tailor selections that work for users.  If there are only a dozen users, then this is pretty easy to do.  'Latest' lists and 'More like this' would also be targeted from the library selected.  Users would stay within their interests.  Perhaps have a contact way for users to request or switch out to other libraries.  When the user logs in they know they will be seeing things they like.  Overload goes away and users will hopefully login more.
2. Branded by studio or type Collections, listed on the top home page row could help.  You can put branded collections first by just adjusting the sort name of each to _brand 01, _brand 02...  Actual collections of a films would come after all the brand targeted collections.

Here is a study covering a lot of what everyone here is discussing:

User's Dilemma: A Qualitative Study on the Influence of Netflix Recommender Systems on Choice Overload
Research in Progress - Open access - Published: 24 September 2024
Recommendations: see page 365

Quote

The study confrms this by showing a strong preference among participants for retaining Netfix’s recommendation lists, with many expressing reluctances at the thought of these lists being removed.

 

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12646-024-00807-0.pdf

Edited December 3, 2024 by visproduction

[242Movies 26]

Even just adding the individual Genres as rows on the front page would be useful.
Especially if the contents of the rows are randomized

[bandit8623 213]

On 11/27/2024 at 9:11 PM, ebr said:

But they can only do that because they are watching everything that all of you are doing...

We don't do that so we have no way of knowing what is "trending" beyond what you, yourself are watching.

can the server just go off what other users on the server are watching?  that would be enough trending for me. that way emby (outside home) doesnt need to know anything