SORT TAGS

[UKenGB 0]

I really hate that I'm having to ask this, worse it seems that the only 'General' section is also for 'Windows'. What's the connection there? Seems an irrelevant combination. 

Anyway, that's not my question. Which is…

Can anyone explain if/how emby makes use of the 'Sort' tags in music (and other) metadata?

Listing an artist's albums or tracks alphabetically is basically random. There is NO virtue in viewing those items in alphabetical order. OK, might be useful to be able to find something in a long list, but why would I want to listen to an artist's albums (tracks even worse) in alphabetical order. That's not a question as there is NO sensible answer.

Emby's sorting of the album by 'release date' seems to use the date they were added to emby (rather than the 'Release Date' metadata tag) as far as I can see and by 'Year' is pretty useless as tracks may have different 'Year' tags. So which will be used? In any case, the 'Year' of any track may have no relation whatsoever to the release date of the album.

What we need is a set of tags that allow the user to create suitable data that will provide the correct sorting of items. Oh wait. We have that. They're the 'SORT' tags, for album, artist etc. Using those I have iTunes (now Music) and Plex sorting everything EXACTLY as I require. IOW, precisely what they were introduced for. They are the PERFECT solution. Spend the time to create them appropriately and everything is sorted how you want, or leave them empty and just sort on the basic tags. So the perfect solution. Available for all who need them, but transparent to those who have no need.

I've spent the last few days really looking into emby as I thought it offered something not available in Plex. Having finally got a music library set up I am more than disappointed to see that it appears emby completely IGNORES the sort tags and e.g. Al Stewart is sorted under A. WTF? Not only is this dumb from any point of view, but the fact there is a mechanism to allow every user to achieve their perfect sort, but is being ignored is, well, even dumber.

I realise many users have no interest in correct sorting, but as I said, the existence of the Sort tags should not trouble you. But not only have I been working with digital music data for nearly 40 years, I am also a former database developer who worked in the music industry and correctly sorting 2000 albums and/or 25k tracks is REALLY *** IMPORTANT.

A bit of a rant, I realise, but I am beyond disappointed that emby seems so utterly and abysmally lacking in this regard. I was all prepared to buy a lifetime pass if it worked well, but this is a deal breaker for me - whatever else it may offer.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong and emby fully supports the 'Sort' tags?

[Luke 42083]

Quote

Listing an artist's albums or tracks alphabetically is basically random. 

Hi, can you please provide a specific example? Are your tracks tagged with track number values?

[Luke 42083]

Also can you provide a copy of one of these tracks for testing so that I can examine the embedded info? Thanks.

[pwhodges 2012]

2 hours ago, UKenGB said:

Listing an artist's albums or tracks alphabetically is basically random. There is NO virtue in viewing those items in alphabetical order. OK, might be useful to be able to find something in a long list, but why would I want to listen to an artist's albums (tracks even worse) in alphabetical order. That's not a question as there is NO sensible answer.

2 hours ago, Luke said:

Hi, can you please provide a specific example? Are your tracks tagged with track number values?

I think he doesn't mean the ordering is incorrect to its specification, but that alphabetical ordering is meaningless in most circumstances, and therefore barely worth offering - I know that's a lot to unpack from the word "random", but it was the way I read it.

Paul

[UKenGB 0]

9 hours ago, pwhodges said:

I think he doesn't mean the ordering is incorrect to its specification, but that alphabetical ordering is meaningless in most circumstances, and therefore barely worth offering - I know that's a lot to unpack from the word "random", but it was the way I read it.

Paul

Yes exactly. Sorry I was unclear. Alphabetical sorting of an artist's albums or tracks is of no use and might as well be random, or shuffled.

I realise my preferred sort order will not be how everyone requires it, but that is why we have the 'Sort ' versions of the tags, so EVERYONE can have it exactly as they want - provided the software takes notice of those 'Sort ' tags and orders the list by those first. In SQL this would be about a dozen additional characters added to the program code, so it's not like it is hard to implement. It simply requires an understanding of the data and how it is or can be used.

So many aspects of emby that I really like, but this is a crucial one that is apparently sorely lacking.

@Lukeit's not that my data is in any way lacking. If the Album Artist tag is 'Al Stewart' and the Sort Album Artist tag is 'Stewart, Al', where should that artist be sorted? Clearly the existence of the 'Sort ' tag indicates that should be used so it should be sorted under 'S'. My list of artists places him squarely under 'A' and the same problem is obvious for ALL artists as emby is not using the 'Sort ' tags and I can find no mention of them at all which implies emby has no idea even of their existence.

The art of good database design is not just analysing the data requirements and normalising to reduce storage etc, but also to represent that data in meaningful ways that suit the customer's requirements and it is frustrating to have to explain this to a company that is selling a data manipulation product about which it appears they have no idea how it should be usable.

Needless to say, if I can be pointed to how I can configure emby to correctly utilise the 'Sort ' tags, I will be delighted and humbly apologise.

[ebr 16187]

17 hours ago, UKenGB said:

it seems that the only 'General' section is also for 'Windows'. What's the connection there? Seems an irrelevant combination

Hi.  Windows is by far our largest platform so it made sense to make it the "general" or platform-independent forum as well as making a distinction between Windows-specific issues (of which there would be very few) and just general issues doesn't seem necessary.  Thanks.

[Luke 42083]

19 hours ago, UKenGB said:

Yes exactly. Sorry I was unclear. Alphabetical sorting of an artist's albums or tracks is of no use and might as well be random, or shuffled.

I realise my preferred sort order will not be how everyone requires it, but that is why we have the 'Sort ' versions of the tags, so EVERYONE can have it exactly as they want - provided the software takes notice of those 'Sort ' tags and orders the list by those first. In SQL this would be about a dozen additional characters added to the program code, so it's not like it is hard to implement. It simply requires an understanding of the data and how it is or can be used.

So many aspects of emby that I really like, but this is a crucial one that is apparently sorely lacking.

@Lukeit's not that my data is in any way lacking. If the Album Artist tag is 'Al Stewart' and the Sort Album Artist tag is 'Stewart, Al', where should that artist be sorted? Clearly the existence of the 'Sort ' tag indicates that should be used so it should be sorted under 'S'. My list of artists places him squarely under 'A' and the same problem is obvious for ALL artists as emby is not using the 'Sort ' tags and I can find no mention of them at all which implies emby has no idea even of their existence.

The art of good database design is not just analysing the data requirements and normalising to reduce storage etc, but also to represent that data in meaningful ways that suit the customer's requirements and it is frustrating to have to explain this to a company that is selling a data manipulation product about which it appears they have no idea how it should be usable.

Needless to say, if I can be pointed to how I can configure emby to correctly utilise the 'Sort ' tags, I will be delighted and humbly apologise.

Can you provide a sample track for testing? I should be able to take a look at it. Thanks.

[UKenGB 0]

On 4/12/2023 at 4:23 AM, Luke said:

Can you provide a sample track for testing? I should be able to take a look at it. Thanks.

Well I could, but it would be meaningless. My query is about the sorting of lists and a single item does not a list make. 

The question is as before, not about my tracks. It is about whether emby utilises the 'Sort ' versions of tags. From what I see, it does not, but I would like to be proved wrong. The real question is whether emby's code has anything to do with the 'Sort ' tags. Should it import and use them, or is my experience correct and emby totally ignores their existence? Or should it use them, as do Apple's products and also Plex? 

Only emby themselves can confirm how emby is coded.

[Luke 42083]

Actually it would help. Can you provide a sample track for testing? Thanks !

[UKenGB 0]

@LukeI appreciate you following this up, but I am puzzled as to why a track from me would help. Is it just to confirm I am telling the truth and have fully populated the Album, Artist and Album Artist tags as well as their 'Sort ' versions? I can assure you I have. For all 25k tracks.

Or do you have no music files at all with which to test? In which case a single one from me will not help at all.

What could you possibly discover with one of my files when what needs to be done is to look at the emby code to see if it uses the 'Sort ' tags and if so how - 'cos it's not working.

First step, prior to any actual testing is to determine whether emby code is written to utilise those 'Sort ' tags. If it is not, then no point in me sending any files, or anyone conducting any form of testing at all, is there. If it is supposed to use them, then and only then is it worth actually testing to discover why it is not working.

The fact I am getting no confirmation that emby does contain code to use the 'Sort ' tags rather implies to me that it does not. If that is wrong, then ok, let's get testing.

[Luke 42083]

It would allow me to look at how the data is embedded into the file. Thanks.

[UKenGB 0]

I'm still not getting this @Luke. I use standard mp3 and aac files and tag storage within those filetypes is well known and documented. Emby must have the ability to read tag data, what is the issue with the 'Sort ' tags that requires you to look at how the data is incorporated into the files. They're just standard tags.

In any case, still unresolved is the issue of whether emby's code has been written to use these tags or not. If it has not (as I suspect) then no amount of studying how the tag data is embedded in the file will change that fact.

On the other hand, if this is a precursor to re-writing that part of emby's code to actually use the 'Sort ' tags, then I'm all for it and will help in any way I can, although I am still not sure why you need my files to do this. They are just the standard 'Sort ' tags and any mp3 or aac file can be tagged with any tag editor and then used to test the new code.

I am not trying to avoid sending you any files, you can have whatever is required to get this feature into emby if that is indeed what you are attempting, but I simply do not understand the requirement to use my files which makes me wonder if you've really grasped what we're talking about.

[UKenGB 0]

@LukeStill no confirmation that emby does use the 'Sort ' tags. Have you checked the code and/or asked the devs if they use 'Sort ' tags?

Or do I take the lack of confirmation as meaning emby currently has NO support for 'Sort ' tags?

In which case, any plans to do so?

[ebr 16187]

Just now, UKenGB said:

In which case, any plans to do so?

If you can provide the sample requested, we can investigate.  Thanks.

[gillmacca01 211]

Depending on where and how your tracks are tagged, there could be tags that you cannot see in your tagging software. Luke just wants to see a track to see if there are any tags that could be causing an issue

[UKenGB 0]

Ok, where do you want me to upload some tracks? How many do you want? What format?

I am still at a loss to understand this request. No other tags should affect this issue. You read the tag and use it (or not). What has that to do with any other tag? Most worrying is that my repeated question of whether emby is actually written to use those 'Sort ' tags is still unanswered.

What is the point of looking at the files if emby does not read and use those tags. The answer is in emby's code, not in my files.

I feel like I'm talking in Martian here as no-one seems to be grasping this. Standard tags, fully documented. Is emby written to use them or not? Simple question for emby devs to answer and doesn't require delving into files.

If you look at a file's information in Plex, the 'Sort' fields are displayed and it uses them. In emby I could find no mention of the 'Sort ' tags and certainly they were not being used to sort the lists. So as far as I can tell, no, emby does not read/use the 'Sort ' tags, but why has this not been confirmed and instead I just get apparently pointless requests for files to examine. Does that indicate this capability is being considered as an addition to emby?

In the hope that it will spur development of emby to utilising the 'Sort ' tags, just let me know about the files.