Sort title is ignored within series if seasons are specified

[semioniy 4]

Sort titles work within a series only if no seasons are specified. As soon as you specify seasons, season numbers override sort titles.

Why this is problematic: anime really doesn't like to follow any numbering conventions, so sometimes there's stuff between season 1 and season 2, sometimes it's one OVA episode, and sometimes it's a movie. (And sometimes there are specials that are placed in between episodes of specific seasons.)

Example series: Re:Zero. There's Season 1, there's an OVA that comes after (Memory snow), and a movie after that (Frozen bonds), and then comes season 2. If I don't specify seasons and only use sort titles, everything is sorted correctly.
On the picture:

• Specials 
  • Sort title: "0. Specials"
  • Season: undefined
• Season 1
  • Sort title: "1. Season 1"
  • Season: undefined
• Memory Snow
  • Sort title: "2. Memory snow"
  • Season: undefined
• Frozen Bonds
  • Sort title: "3. Frozen bonds"
  • Season: undefined
• Season 2
  • Sort title: "4. Season 2"
  • Season: undefined

If I specify season numbers 1 and 2 for season 1 and season 2 respectively, season 1 and season 2 shift to the end of the list.

• Specials 
  • Sort title: "0. Specials"
  • Season: undefined
• Season 1
  • Sort title: "1. Season 1"
  • Season: 1
• Memory Snow
  • Sort title: "2. Memory snow"
  • Season: undefined
• Frozen Bonds
  • Sort title: "3. Frozen bonds"
  • Season: undefined
• Season 2
  • Sort title: "4. Season 2"
  • Season: 2

Why this is problematic, part 2:  you may think "semioniy, don't be a try-hard, just use sort titles and not the season numbers". Sadly, this reduces functionality. As you can see on the first picture, I have the right order, BUT I lose (I don't know how this function is called, so for the lack of a better name) smart episode ordering functionality. There are 50 specials, and they are placed in between episodes of season 1 and 2. E.g. season 1: Episode 1, special 1, Episode 2, special 2 and so on.

This is a cool function, but it only works IF you specify season number. Otherwise, specials just remain in the Special folder. You can see that by the number of unwatched episodes - I haven't watched any specials, but have watched Season 1 and Season 2. On the first picture, all specials are in Special folder, and on the second picture - 25 of them are in season 1, and 25 in season 2.

Where I'm heading with this: it would be nice, if season number wouldn't override the order specified by sort titles. Right now, in cases like this, it's either right order, or complete functionality.

P.S. It's 3 times more difficult than that for Monogatari series

Season 2 for sure isn't the second entry in the list . And the only way to do that is to not specify season number. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by semioniy
added post scriptum

[Luke 42079]

Hi, ordering is based on the season numbers first and sort titles second, so that's why you see this.

[semioniy 4]

Hi. Yeah, I could derive that from the behavior, but the question is, what can I do about it?

[ebr 16184]

13 hours ago, semioniy said:

but the question is, what can I do about it?

Hi.  Perhaps use specials?

[semioniy 4]

On 17/12/2022 at 16:43, ebr said:

Hi.  Perhaps use specials?

Hi. Not sure what you mean exactly, but I am using specials, they are on the pictures 1 & 2.

[semioniy 4]

I also don't quite understand why Season number overrides Sort title. Sort title kinda implies, that this field is meant to be used for sorting, despite what values season title and season number have. At least if user fills sort title with custom value and locks it. 

[Happy2Play 9780]

Sort of a grey area as Season folder should always be sequential.  Undefined will precede defined seasons so you can't mix and match.  Season number, SortTiles

No season numbers with custom sort titles sorted alphabetically.  Now I have no idea how this may mess up playback if it even does.

@pwhodgesyou have ideas for this?

[semioniy 4]

1 hour ago, Happy2Play said:

Sort of a grey area as Season folder should always be sequential. 

Works only for media that stick to the convension when releasing content though
Anime studios love releasing stuff between seasons, mixing up series with movies and what not, so Season number >> SortTiles just doesn't work...

Edited December 19, 2022 by semioniy

[Happy2Play 9780]

3 minutes ago, semioniy said:

Season number >> SortTiles just doesn't work...

It does but requires all seasons to be null/empty as I already posted you cannot mix and match do to sort precedence SN then ST.  But can see this making playback problematic as your breaking order.  But Anime is a beast in itself and plays by its own rules so TV sequential order will always be problematic.

[pwhodges 2012]

Hmm - what to say?  I have both these titles...

In the past I have used non-standard folder naming with episodes having the right SxxEyy naming to get the metadata - but then Emby got pickier about putting things in the "right" folders and broke my schemes - and I've not been able to recreate them as I wanted (and wrote about a couple of years ago).

In the case of Monogatari, I now use the DVD order as the nearest to acceptable.  TVDB is completely crazy on this, and locked so we can't fix it.  Their "Aired Order" puts nearly half the episodes as "Specials", which is pretty useless.  Their "DVD order" breaks things up as they were aired, and NOT as they were put on DVD (specifically the whole "Second Season" is lumped together).  Their "Absolute order" leaves nearly half the episodes unassigned.  But they have a decent "Book order".

The "Book order" is accessible through the API as "Alternate order" - However, Emby doesn't yet enable this to be selected.  This option has been asked for many times, but is still not happening.

The case of Re:Zero is more tricky.  Again, TVDB has an ordering for the "Director's Cut", which as above can be accessed through the API as "Altenate order".  But in this case there is the additional difficulty that the director's cut is only for the first season, and the TVDB ordering doesn't include the (ordinary) metadata for the second season.  And again, Emby doesn't let you access the alternate order anyway.

If you want both the original and the CD versions of the first season, the only thing to do is to have them as separate series with merging disabled.  My metadata for the DC season is manually set up (for a time TMDB had it as a separate series, but that's now been removed, though IMDB still has a separate entry for it).  Or you can use only the DC versions for Season One with aired ordering and use the s01e02-e03 episode numbering scheme to pull in the correct metadata.

So...  It would be a great help if Emby finally enabled access to TVDB's "Alternate order".  I also thought about the case for changing the ordering for an individual season - but this is probably impractical because the chosen ordering also determines the division into seasons itself.

Paul

[Luke 42079]

Right now the best way I can think of to choose your own season order is to assign them season number as desired.

[pwhodges 2012]

Which then requires entirely manual handling of metadata - Monogatari has well over 100 episodes; but TVDB (now) has a decent order for it built in, but Emby can't access it yet.

Paul

Edited December 19, 2022 by pwhodges

[semioniy 4]

20 hours ago, Luke said:

Right now the best way I can think of to choose your own season order is to assign them season number as desired.

That won't work though. I can't set Season number to 1.3 for OVA that came out right after season 1, and season 1.5 to the movie that precedes second season.

And if I set OVA to be season number 2, movie to season number 3, and season 2 to season number 4, then 

• it's just chaos
• I won't get my specials shown as part of season 2, as described in the original post.

[semioniy 4]

An alternative would be to add them to collections...?

Like, add season 1 + OVA + Movie + Season 2.

But again, what order is it in when in collection? It's neither by time added to collection, nor alphabetic... I don't know anymore.

Edited December 20, 2022 by semioniy

[pwhodges 2012]

Release date, I suspect.

Paul

[semioniy 4]

Well, I get nudged by the forum to choose a reply as a "solution" before this thread gets closed - so, as a TLDR for those who stumble upon this topic in the future:

- No, you can not use Sort titles for sorting seasons of a show, as long as (some of) your seasons have Season numbers, because Season numbers override Sort titles.

Edited January 28, 2023 by semioniy
typo

[scegg 12]

So, how to make Emby sort series based on sort title first than others?

Not possible, yet?

[semioniy 4]

Here's how I organized a super convoluted series Monogatari:

Step 1 (optional, only for convoluted series). You go to TVDB (worked best for me, maybe you use a different metadata service), find your desired series and go to seasons. It was a revelation to me, but right under Seasons button there's a section for different orders - aired order, DVD order etc (may be not present for your series - then tough luck I guess). You can set this order in emby for the whole series: Series - Edit medatada - File order. In my example I set it to DVD.

Step 2. Add your seasons / DVDs to Emby so that they are recognized and the right metadata is pulled. I always add them one-by-one so that if anything goes wrong, I can remove the folder and then re-add it.

Step 3. Now hopefully you have your series with all the seasons / DVDs, but in the wrong order. In my example - the movies that precede the whole series - Kizumonogatari - are in the DVD 9, even though they are the very beginning of the story, and Nekomonogatari Kuro, which comes right after the movies, are in the DVD 3.I want Kizu and Neko to be first and second entries respectively, so I go to their "Season", , and then remove the season number. I also add a sorting title here.

 

After that, I have a series that has all the metadata, but also has the right watch order.

[pwhodges 2012]

3 hours ago, semioniy said:

After that, I have a series that has all the metadata, but also has the right watch order.

Except for Hanamonogatari

Paul

[semioniy 4]

15 minutes ago, pwhodges said:

Except for Hanamonogatari

 

Well, I can't really have a season in the middle of another season, can I?

[pwhodges 2012]

Don't need to - chronologically  it comes after Zoku Owarimonogatari, because Koyomi is now a student driving his trademark yellow VW Beetle (as seen in the current airing season).

Paul

[semioniy 4]

Ok then, I guess I only need season number for downloading metadata, and when it's there, I remove all the season numbers, lock everything from changes, and only keep sorting titles. An imperfect, but a working solution

Edited October 18, 2024 by semioniy

[Luke 42079]

On 10/18/2024 at 11:35 AM, semioniy said:

Ok then, I guess I only need season number for downloading metadata, and when it's there, I remove all the season numbers, lock everything from changes, and only keep sorting titles. An imperfect, but a working solution

Hi, this is likely to cause side effects so just be aware of that.

[pwhodges 2012]

When you get around to enabling alternate order in TVDB, I at least will no longer need to fiddle with this series, as the Book order will become available to me, which I'll be happy with.

Paul

[semioniy 4]

6 hours ago, Luke said:

Hi, this is likely to cause side effects so just be aware of that.

Hi. Well, I don't really see another option. 
It works good so far, except I have to manually navigate to the next season when finished with the current one, because the "automatic jump" goes to the wrong one.
Edge cases might require edge solutions

Edited October 23, 2024 by semioniy
grammar