Alphabetization vs. capitalization

[nospotify 184]

Apparent bug report: Emby is alphabetizing differently based on capitalization - see example below. "Art Of the Trio 1" is being alphabetized after 2, 3, and 4, which don't have the "of" capitalized, which seems incorrect behavior.

[Luke 42078]

Hi, we're not actually doing anything with that text. We're displaying it as-is, meaning, coming directly from your audio files and/or internet metadata.

[nospotify 184]

I know that. I am pointing out that the Title SORTING of albums is incorrect - where I come from, the proper order is 1,2,3,4, not 2,3,4,1 - Emby is apparently sorting based on capitalization, which should be irrelevant.

[Luke 42078]

Have you checked the metadata editor of each of those four to see what the sort titles are ?

[nospotify 184]

Yes I have. The metadata is fine and accurate. The only issue is capitalization vs. non-capitalization of the word "of," which Emby apparently seems to be handling incorrectly. See screenshot from MP3Tag below. It sorts properly there, but not in Emby.

[Luke 42078]

What did you find in the metadata editor?

[nospotify 184]

In Emby's "Edit Metadata" screens, the Title and Sort title are IDENTICAL for each:

Art of the Trio 4 : Back at the Vanguard

Art of the Trio 3 - Songs

Art of the Trio 2 - Live at the Vanguard

Art Of The Trio 1

Again, the ONLY difference is the capitalization of "of"

[Happy2Play 9780]

Simple testing will sort lower case before uppercase.

sort title a 1, a 2 then A 1.  So case is grouped.

or "a 2" is before "A 1"

Edited July 8, 2022 by Happy2Play

[nospotify 184]

Yes that's the apparent behavior, but that isn't how any other media app behaves and Emby shouldn't behave that way. It's a dead-simple text operation to ignore case. That's why I am reporting it as a bug to be fixed.

[Happy2Play 9780]

So the question is is this within the control of Emby or a NetCore issue?

[nospotify 184]

It can be easily fixed in Emby. Even in Excel, standardizing case before sorting would be as simple as adding "=LOWER(textstring)". It's a UX bug and it would be great to have it fixed.

[Happy2Play 9780]

True but I personally would fix the naming/tagging defect.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Happy2Play

[Vicpa 611]

Hi,

Sorry to disagree. I don't think this is a defect.  Emby reads the tags accurately, creates the sort name correctly to its rules. The sort order is probably the function of a system thing or tool, @Happy2Play  I can't imagine it within emby's control. 

@wordlover If I saw this in my library, I would agree that it seems "wrong", But the trivial couple minute fix. Is to make your tags consistent.

Picard and Discogs choose differently "of" vs "Of" but doesn't matter choose one.

 

-vicpa

 

 

[Luke 42078]

3 minutes ago, Vicpa said:

Hi,

Sorry to disagree. I don't think this is a defect.  Emby reads the tags accurately, creates the sort name correctly to its rules. The sort order is probably the function of a system thing or tool, @Happy2Play  I can't imagine it within emby's control. 

@wordlover If I saw this in my library, I would agree that it seems "wrong", But the trivial couple minute fix. Is to make your tags consistent.

Picard and Discogs choose differently "of" vs "Of" but doesn't matter choose one.

 

-vicpa

 

 

sqlite sorting to be exact, and we are already doing that case-insensitive, so I'm wondering if it's due to having text after the number. 

[nospotify 184]

Thanks @Luke.

@Vicpa @Happy2Play, "fix your metadata" should not pertain in this situation. The official title of some albums - chosen by the actual ARTIST - may capitalize or not, and as Luke points out the case-sensitive sorting behavior is not what the engineers, nor users, expect or intend.

[Luke 42078]

OK perhaps now I'm understanding. We do case insensitive because case sensitive sorting would be too strict for the majority of users. I mean the overwhelming majority.

This actually sounds like a case where you want it case sensitive but we don't have an option for that at the moment.

[Vicpa 611]

@wordlover

32 minutes ago, wordlover said:

Thanks @Luke.

@Vicpa @Happy2Play, "fix your metadata" should not pertain in this situation. The official title of some albums - chosen by the actual ARTIST - may capitalize or not, and as Luke points out the case-sensitive sorting behavior is not what the engineers, nor users, expect or intend.

LO,L SURE does. I agree totally with "The official title of some albums - chosen by the actual ARTIST - may capitalize or not" But who is the source of that info? Not an individual user on emby. I can't Brad on the phone, so I go with either MusicBrainz or Discogs, sites that document this type of things. emby actually uses MusicBrainz directly. 

If an Artist can choose  mixed, lower or upper case why would I not want case-sensitive sorting. It is working fine as it is now.

-vicpa

@Luke The sort is correct as it is. The usage of sqllite is so dominant if there were defects or anomalies they would be well documented. 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by Vicpa

[nospotify 184]

No @Lukenthe opposite. Case insensitive is NOT working. It IS what is desired.

[nospotify 184]

@Vicpa Please look at the example this thread started with. There is no rational reason the usages Of and of should sort separately.

[Happy2Play 9780]

But why is one different than the other?  Is this not Human error?

[Happy2Play 9780]

39 minutes ago, Luke said:

We do case insensitive because case sensitive sorting would be too strict for the majority of users.

Are you sure?

SortTitle "a 2: xxx" will precede "A 1: xxx"

[Luke 42078]

7 minutes ago, Happy2Play said:

Are you sure?

SortTitle "a 2: xxx" will precede "A 1: xxx"

Actually I lied. Looks like there is a fix to make. For something so fundamental I'm surprised it's been like this all these years without being noticed before.

[Happy2Play 9780]

1 minute ago, Luke said:

Actually I lied. Looks like there is a fix to make. For something so fundamental I'm surprised it's been like this all these years without being noticed before.

But this will require complete Media Refresh correct?

[Luke 42078]

Just now, Happy2Play said:

But this will require complete Media Refresh correct?

No, the saved sort title in the database does not need any special casing. That is an improvement that came along in 4.6.

[Vicpa 611]

35 minutes ago, Luke said:

Actually I lied. Looks like there is a fix to make. For something so fundamental I'm surprised it's been like this all these years without being noticed before.

@Luke

WTF:  this guys tags are wrong. I hope this is thoroughly tested or we could end up with more shit .

It is a shame the emby keeps getting dumbed down..

Edited July 8, 2022 by Vicpa