Music Metadata / Using Musicbrainz Picard / ID3v2.3 vs ID3v2.4

[henning65 6]

Dear emby Team

 

I evaluate different music server software solutions. I try to understand how emby interprets metadata from audio files. My goal is to tag classical music including multiple artists. Best would be including metadata for composer and other roles like conductor. I learned that emby doesn't support composers which is disappointing.

 

 

I'm working with the application Musicbrainz Picard to get the correct Metadata for my audio files. I learned that different versions of IDtags exist and that this versions differ in significant aspects.

 

Problem: 

I use the application Musicbrainz Picard to write multiple GENRE and ALBUMARTISTS tags into my files (and to update other Metadata). This informations don't show up in emby. I believe this might be caused by 

• emby looking for a specific "separator" in multiple Metadata which isn't there (I guess Picard somehow presents the tags in separated lines and emby expects "/")
• emby is expecting a specific coding: UTF-8 / UTF-16 or ISO-8859-1 and this is not used

 

 

I would like to understand better the options and abilities of emby. Could you please enlighten me on the specifications emby has for metadata? In detail

1. Does emby support ID3v2.4 tags and which encoding is required? If not: which ID3 version and which encoding is supported?
2. Which "separators" for multiple Metadata tags are supported by emby and do you have a suggestion how to force the application Musicbrainz Picard to use this "separator"
3. As I understand different versions of ID3 can be present in a single audio file. Which version is given priority by emby? And how can I make sure its always the newest version which is used?
4. Emby offers Metadata summarized "People". I guess this tags are related to the tag Artist in relationship with a certain "role". It would be helpful, if you could specify a) how to address this emby feature by the metadata in audio files (==> which tag does emby uses to define a role) and it would be helpful, if emby would include further roles (like instruments, conductor) or to open this feature up for customization. Could you please specify what is possible and if this might be helpful?

Thanks for your help

 

With regards

Henning

[Luke 37066]

Hi there, composer support is planned for the future.

 

Regarding the tags, can you provide some sample files for testing?

 

We use ffprobe so we'd have to see what that supports. Thanks.

[pwhodges 1530]

All my music is tagged with a composer, so it would be nice to have an option to display that. 

 

But of course the real problem with classical music is that the CDs and compositions have such varied structures that no one display scheme is going to work nicely for everything; as a simple example, you don't want the composer listed for each track of a wholw opera, but you might want the singers for each individual aria, while on the other hand, a recital of operatic arias might have the same singer throughout but a different composer for every track - but displaying everything for every track soon gets to look pretty stupid.  In truth, the only way to get complete, consistent, and sensibly displayed metadata for a whole classical collection is to lash out $$$ for Roon.

 

Paul

[henning65 6]

Dear Luke 

 

Thanks for your quick reply and for helping!

Please find enclosed two audio files: Composer Bach: Matthäus Passion / Conductor Christoph Spering / Chorus Musicus

I had to generate a new record within Musicbrainz as this record wasn't listed - hope I made no mistakes ...

 

ups - I'm a bit lost - how to upload files into the forum?

 

 

@pwhodges: I agree and also disagree

First of all: I believe there should be some sort of standard. I think the database Musicbrainz could be such a standard.

Deciding to which music I like to listen is mostly an intuitive decision, mostly driven just by Composer / Artist / Album / Genre. But I do believe in rich information. I do believe, it might be interesting to realize a certain conductor / a certain Tenor / a certain composer pops up again and again.... than you start to become interested and you might even want to get more of her / his work ... for now, that's very difficult as emby simply doesn't support this process of enjoyment. ... 

 

To me the process is similar to other media like books and movies: Also there I become interested first in the single "product" / art. But in time I might realize that some actors appear in my favorite movies - I might realize that's always the same narrator (audiobooks) who appears when I'm fascinated from an audiobook... So than, I might actively start searching for more examples of her / his art... For now, that's not possible, as this people don't "show up". 

 

Yours

Henning

[henning65 6]

@ Luke: In the menu I see "My Media". After klicking a pop-up window appears - including a search option - but I can't search my hard drive and I can't upload. Sorry 

 

System: MacOS 10.15.4 / Browser: Safari

[pwhodges 1530]

To upload, select "More Reply Options" next to "Post"; then select the file; then there's a separate click to upload the selected file (easy to forget that).

 

Paul

[henning65 6]

@ pwhodges: thanks! for helping but I still have problems posting files. I followed your instruction and I get the message "You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file"

 

@ Luke: could you please let me know how to supply the files?

 

-----

Dear Luke

 

please find enclosed two files generated with 8 different MusicBrainz Picard settings

I tested all example by emby (imported the files / scan of library / check if artist are listed for Albumartists and / or Artists / check Track-Metadata)

 

settings of MusicBrainz Picard

- For all example -files: 

=> Setting / Tags: deleted existing Tags (before writing new tags) ==> Normaly I don't use this, but might be better for this test - you agree?

 

1. Example

=> Settings / Plugins / Classical Extras / Artists / disable "Create extra artist metadata (Must be ticked for this section to run)

=> Settings / Plugins / Classical Extras / Works and parts / disable "Include all work levels" (must be ticked for this section to run)

=> Settings / Plugins / Classical Extras / Genres etc. / disable "Use Muso reference database"

=> Settings / Scripting / disable 

=> Settings / Tags / Tag-compatibility / ID3v2-Version: 2.3 // encoding: UTF-16 // connect multiple ID3v2.3-Tags with "/" / disable iTunes-compatible-Group and movement / disable aditional ID3v1-Tags / AAC-files: tick APEv2-Tag /AC3-files: APEv2-Tags

[actually I don't know the relevance of AAC / AC3 files so I just use the default ... hope that's fine]

emby-server

- Album Artists / Artist: only JS Bach

- Track-Metadata: only JS Bach as Artists / Album Artists

 

 

2. Example

Settings / Plugins / Classical Extras / see Example 1

Settings / Scripting / see Example 1

Settings / Tags / Tag compatibility / ID3v2-Version: 2.3 // encoding: ISO-8859-1 // other settings like Example 1

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

 

3. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras / see Example 1

Settings / Scripting / see Example 1

Settings / Tags / Tag compatibility / ID3v2-Version: 2.4 // encoding: UTF-8 // other settings like Example 1

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

 

4. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras / see Example 1

Settings Scripting / see Example 1

Settings / Tags / Tag compatibility / ID3v2-Version: 2.4 // encoding: UTF-16 // other settings like Example 1

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

 

5. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras /

--tick "Create extra artist metadata"

--- Use alias for work-artist/performers / Names to use... (all ticked) / Places to use them (all ticked) / Sup-options: Alias over-rides credited as / Fix non-Latin text in names / Recording artist options: Naming convention as for ... track artist / Use recording artist to update track artists -> Merge track artist and record artist / Other artist options (all ticked)

---disable works and parts

--- tick Use Muso reference database (default)

Settings Scripting / see Example 1

Settings / Tags / Tag compatibility / settings like Example 3

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

 

6. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras / settings like Example 5

Settings Scripting / see Example 1

Settings Tags / Tag compatibility: ID3v2-Version: 2.3 // encoding: UTF-16 // connect multiple ID3v2.3-Tags with "; " // other settings see Example 1

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

7. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras / see Example 1

Settings Scripting / see Example 1

Settings Tags / Tag compatibility / see Example 6

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

8. Example

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras / see Example 1

Settings Scripting / see Example 1

Settings Tags / Tag compatibility: ID3v2-Version: 2.3 // encoding: UTF-16 // connect multiple ID3v2.3-Tags with " / " // other settings see Example 1

emby-server

- same result as 1. Example

 

 

This is kind of frustrating - hope the examples are helpful for you! 

 

Yours

Henning

[pwhodges 1530]

 

@ pwhodges: thanks! for helping but I still have problems posting files. I followed your instruction and I get the message "You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file"

 

You can always upload a zip file, unless it's over the maximum size (which I can't remember!); so zip your samples and try again.  Otherwise it's a matter of hosting the files somewhere and posting a link.

 

Paul

[Luke 37066]

I added @@Vicpa and @@ginjaninja to the PM as well in case they may want to try the file.

[henning65 6]

@pwhodges: Thanks for the zip advice ...

 

@Luke: hope you can make something from the examples!

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

Please find enclosed the examples. I ziped the two files of each example together.

 

Yours

Henning

3 Example.zip

1 Example.zip

2 Example.zip

4 Example.zip

4 Example.zip

5 Example.zip

6 Example.zip

7 Example.zip

8 Example.zip

[henning65 6]

As I was a little unsure if the problem of not listing multiple artists is caused by my input into the Musicbrainz-database (as I created the details for the files myself), I searched for a classic album, which is already listed in Musicbrainz.  

 

I found an Album - Its enclosed as Example.

I used Musicbrainz Picard to fix the metadata of the album.

 

For Musicbrainz Picard I used the following settings:

=> Setting / Tags: deleted existing Tags (before writing new tags) 

=> Settings / Tags / Tag-compatibility / ID3v2-Version: 2.3 // encoding: UTF-16 // connect multiple ID3v2.3-Tags with "/" / disable iTunes-compatible-Group and movement / disable aditional ID3v1-Tags / AAC-files: tick APEv2-Tag /AC3-files: APEv2-Tags

Settings Plugins / Classical Extras /

--tick "Create extra artist metadata"

--- Use alias for work-artist/performers / Names to use... (all ticked) / Places to use them (all ticked) / Sup-options: Alias over-rides credited as / Fix non-Latin text in names / Recording artist options: Naming convention as for ... track artist / Use recording artist to update track artists -> Merge track artist and record artist / Other artist options (all ticked)

--tick works and parts

---Works source: Use canonical work metadata enhanced with title text / Source of canonical work text: Full MusicBrainz work hierarchy / Replace MB Wok names? Replace / What to replace?: Non-latin work names / Tags: use_alias & look in all tags

--tick "Genres"

--- tick Use Muso reference database (default)

=> Settings / Scripting / disable 

 

emby-server

- Album Artists / Artist: only Ludwig van Beethoven

- Track-Metadata: only Beethoven as Artists / Album Artists

 

As the metadata have additional artist / album artists I do believe that I could out rule a wrong entry to the MusicBrainz database. The mismatch seems to be related to the interpretation of metadata by emby.

 

Yours

Henning

Beethoven.zip

[pwhodges 1530]

Incidentally, the correct delimiter for multiple artists in a single field is " / " - note the compulsory spaces to prevent AC/DC, for example, being split apart.  But in practice there is no delimiter which is handled uniformly by all programs, so it's pretty hopeless trying to get it right!  Some programs use "; " (again, note the space).

 

Paul

[Vicpa 554]

Incidentally, the correct delimiter for multiple artists in a single field is " / " - note the compulsory spaces to prevent AC/DC, for example, being split apart.  But in practice there is no delimiter which is handled uniformly by all programs, so it's pretty hopeless trying to get it right!  Some programs use "; " (again, note the space).

 

Paul

 

Just an FYI emby uses "; " just fine. Not sure one is more correct than another, personal preference? Picard supports both

[Luke 37066]

 

 

" / "

 

Aha - requiring the spaces might be a good way to support the slashes without creating false separations.

[Vicpa 554]

Hi @@Luke

 

Just so you know Picard doesn't default to spaces with "/" it would be some custom thing, so bad idea in my opinion.  So I would suggest "/" no spaces or "; " or semi colon space.

Both of witch emby currently supports.

 

 

-Vicpa

[henning65 6]

Thanks for your feedback!

 

@@Luke

as I used different versions including " / ", "; " and "/" It would be perfect, if you could offer advice why I only see one entry.

 

@@Luke / @@Vicpa @@pwhodges

If I could choose? I go for ID3v2.4 as there is a "natural" support for multiple entries AND there is no need for a delimiter - it's even not possible to select a delimiter in Musicbrainz Picard if you go for ID3v2.4!

So.... somehow that's up to emby and related to a question in my first post: 

As I understand different versions of ID3 can be present in a single audio file. Which version is given priority by emby? And how can I make sure its always the newest version which is used?

As I said: I would like emby to give priority to ID3v2.4 

 

 

@@pwhodges

As I want to use emby - I just have to know the correct settings - than I configure Musicbrainz Picard to deliver on this settings and all fine!

 

Yours

Henning

[Luke 37066]

Were any of you able to try his sample file?

[pwhodges 1530]

I'm not sure what we can say different.  All the files give the same result (and remind us of the unicode issue!).  Note that I have Emby set not to use any metadata providers for music, so this is simply how it uses the metadata already in the files.

 

The contents of each album are the same, with a garbled artist:

 

 

Just to confirm that the album artist takes this form:

 

 

When I play the tracks for this artist, they all still look the same, but unaccountably there are three tracks which are completely unrelated - whose metadata doesn't include anything in common (in spite of Emby displaying it as if they do):

 

 

Looking at the tags in MP3Tag, it appears to normalise the separators to commas, at least for display, but in two cases the composer and artist tags appear completely different - I've no idea why [but see below] (the disc numbers identify the different examples):

 

 

Ex Falso also normalises the separators to commas for display, but showed clearly the differences in metadata, especially in the list of artist ids from MusicBrainz.  Here are three examples (Ex Falso shows only one file at a time):

 

 

 

 

I have no idea whether all these examples are really useful to you!!

 

Paul

Edited May 27, 2020 by pwhodges

[pwhodges 1530]

So I enabled all the metadata providers in the test library and rescanned the files.  Now it sees the eight sample versions as separate albums, and all of them show as the Artist and Album artist: "J.S. Bach (complte works)", except one that shows the garbled one which is the focus of my previous post.  This new Album Artist now has (as expected) 14 of the 16 sample tracks, but also three unrelated tracks from my own library; the old one still has two tracks plus the 3 unrelated ones from before.  

 

It's this sort of nonsense, plus the fact that the current online sources appear to have only 20% of my music in them, that has led to me manually tagging my music in my own way which I have found to work adequately here.  (And before anyone asks me to add my tags to the cloud providers, I should say I've added some of them in the past, but the source I was working with, because it was already nearest to my needs, has recently closed down - and I'm not inclined to restart on uploading tags for a couple of thousand CDs into a fundamentally broken system; in any case, if I really cared that much, I'd pay the money for Roon, which has already done that work comprehensively.)

 

Paul

[henning65 6]

@pwhodges: Thanks for all the work you did!

Do you know, which example match wrong? 

 

 

I do believe its in the best interest of MusicBrainz to support their community with a good music server like emby and it's in the best interest of emby to offer their community the benefit of rich metadata provided by MusicBrainz. 

Actually it would be perfect, if they would communicate directly with each other - maybe they do, maybe not! I'm just a simple customer looking for state-of-the-art support (aka rich metadata) for my audio files. I do believe a precise information how to use the (existing) MusicBrainz database to enhance the experience of the emby music server is in the best interest of emby (and MusicBrainz).

I do understand that the main focus of the emby team is the movie database. Only limited resources are invested into the music / audiobook support. Under this assumption it is even more efficient for emby to take advantage of the MusicBrainz database and to allocate the own (limited) resources to the goal: "Make it easy for Users to enjoy metadata from MusicBrainz"

I do believe it's not realistic to expect emby to reinvent and to build up their own music database. Under the given priorities such a task is undoable. 

 

Yours

Henning

[henning65 6]

@@Vicpa

@@pwhodges

 

Do you get multiple artists / album artists after using MusicBrainz Picard? Or do you have to add the second / third entry within emby?

 

If you are using MusicBrainz Picard "directly", could you please enlighten me about your MB Picard settings? And maybe you could provide an example file?

 

Yours

Henning

[Vicpa 554]

Hi

I get multiple artists, album artists using picard. 

 

I use Picard directly, including the move and rename option.

 

below are my settings.

 

 

 

 

 

these plugins are installed

 

 

 

Hope this helps. Emby, in my opinion, still needs refinement of multiple Album artists, but seems to work pretty well with multiple artists at the track level.

 

-vicpa

[Luke 37066]

Who was it that sent me the PM with the sample file?

[pwhodges 1530]

Do you mean the one sent by @@PortableStick in a PM? ("The Grudge")

 

Paul

[Luke 37066]

Do you mean the one sent by @@PortableStick in a PM? ("The Grudge")

 

Paul

 

Oh sorry that was for something else. We don't have a sample for this yet.