Guest asrequested Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) Did you also notice the difference in image sharpness on her face between the two renderers? It's hard to tell unless you're viewing it on something 60 inch plus up close. I'm on a 4k display, so there's no down-scaling for me. It's 1:1. You could try some of the scaling options. Edited January 1, 2019 by Doofus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 There's no comparison when you trigger native HDR mode, since the color channels are expanded. Although is your native HDR mode also calibrated closer to Rec2020? Actually, that last one isn't like the HDR being passed. The tone mapping is different, but closer than the first picture. Definitely different to madVR. I took another look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 ok, out of curiosity, i took your theory of down scaling to the test. i went to my 4K monitor (not the 60 inch 1080 in the living room), and tested both 4K content and 1080P content. there's definitely a slight difference in sharpness. MPV produces a slightly softer image while Lav/MadVR produces a slightly sharper image. it's most apparent on finer detail like skin complexion during closeup, and it's even more apparent with 4K content (displayed natively on 4K screen). but the difference is there even with 1080P content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 ok, out of curiosity, i took your theory of down scaling to the test. i went to my 4K monitor (not the 60 inch 1080 in the living room), and tested both 4K content and 1080P content. there's definitely a slight difference in sharpness. MPV produces a slightly softer image while Lav/MadVR produces a slightly sharper image. it's most apparent on finer detail like skin complexion during closeup, and it's even more apparent with 4K content (displayed natively on 4K screen). but the difference is there even with 1080P content. In that case, it's probably the tone mapping algorithms. The manual does mention loss of detail with some of them. Do you want me to make portable version of the new build? I can make it's own mpv.conf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 In that case, it's probably the tone mapping algorithms. The manual does mention loss of detail with some of them. Do you want me to make portable version of the new build? I can make it's own mpv.conf. but it shouldn't affect 1080P content, since there's no tone mapping involved with SDR 1080P content. i am seeing it in regular SDR 1080P content as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) but it shouldn't affect 1080P content, since there's no tone mapping involved with SDR 1080P content. i am seeing it in regular SDR 1080P content as well. Then I don't have an answer. Could be ffmpeg? I wear glasses, and I'm not going to squash my nose on my display to analyze the pixels lol Edited January 2, 2019 by Doofus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 @howzz1854 I've just been testing the video with haasn. He looked at the source and the 'peacock' behind her head has blue in it. So the bright white we see, is inaccurate. https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/issues/6405#issuecomment-450771496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Then I don't have an answer. Could be ffmpeg? I wear glasses, and I'm not going to squash my nose on my display to analyze the pixels lol lol. it is a very subtle difference. although in 4K diaply with 4K source, you may spot it easier. Edited January 2, 2019 by howzz1854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) @howzz1854 I've just been testing the video with haasn. He looked at the source and the 'peacock' behind her head has blue in it. So the bright white we see, is inaccurate. https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/issues/6405#issuecomment-450771496 it does have a blue-ish tone to it, and i confirmed this with my HDR display in my other room. but still the MPV solution comes out darker than the MadVR output, and i know the MadVR grey scale tone-map output is mapped correctly because in the HDR calibration white clipping test it correctly displays all the shades without clipping up to 1000 nits. it's missing the highlights in grey scale. see the two pictures attached. you can even tell in the second picture with the blue cape. the highlight is simply missing, it's not there on the chess player's shoulders. and look at his nose, where the highlight supposed to be there, it's clearly being clipped. i have toggled into HDR mode, and sure the colors are more intensed, and the peacock collar has blue-ish tint to it, but the highlight should still be there, which isn't in MPV. the opera singer picture, on the right is MadVR, clear highlight with blue-ish tint, on the left is MPV, missing highlight. both players are set to peak luminance of the monitor. the blue cape picture, on the right is Mad VR, on the left is MPV, same thing. but the highlight clipping is more apparent. Edited January 2, 2019 by howzz1854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Oh for sure the present mpv release is off. Here, I'm attaching the test build. Just unzip it anywhere you want. Double click the mpv.exe, and drop your movie on it. The mpv.conf is in the portable_config folder. Try it with the config I made, first. I'm actually testing stuff with haasn. Edited January 2, 2019 by Doofus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Since, i already loaded Emby Theater on my other rig in the study with the HDR display, i decided what the heck, might as well run a series of readings. here is the problem, and confirms our previous findings of discrepancy of missing highlights. turns out the luminance curve between MPV and MadVR are different. the i1Display's reading shows this. the calibration source is based on HEVC HDR calibration clips with both MPV/MadVR set to HDR to SDR conversion to display's max luminance and tone map. the graph on the right is MPC-HC with MadVR, the Curve on the left is MPV. the yellow line is the actual reading, the grey is the reference curve. as you can see, MPV starts to clip at 80%, while MadVR rolls off, much closer to the curve of reference, although still not quite. with CIE primary and secondaries it seems that both MPV and MadVR have very similar results in terms of converting Rec 2020 to Rec 709. i hope this will help the community in development and improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Right, but we've already established that, so I'm moving forward with the new developments of today. Which are significantly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 The version of mpv in Theater is way behind at this point. I haven't used it in quite a long time. There are many more changes that have been applied, and the build I'm testing with is further, still. Testing with Theater is a little redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Oh for sure the present mpv release is off. Here, I'm attaching the test build. Just unzip it anywhere you want. Double click the mpv.exe, and drop your movie on it. The mpv.conf is in the portable_config folder. Try it with the config I made, first. I'm actually testing stuff with haasn. how do i load this new version into Emby Theater. i can run another full sweep test and get the readings, but it'll take a while. it took me a while to get all the readings previously comparing MPV and MadVR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) how do i load this new version into Emby Theater. i can run another full sweep test and get the readings, but it'll take a while. it took me a while to get all the readings previously comparing MPV and MadVR. Just run it as it is. Just unzip it to any folder you want, double click mpv.exe, and drag n drop your movie on it. It will play. But I haven't configure audio bitstreaming, just the profile for HDR. Edited January 2, 2019 by Doofus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Did you miss my post? https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/67254-option-for-hdr-tone-map-luminance-value-setting/?p=671157 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Just tried the chess video in the mpv test build. This time with the simple config of hwdec=d3d11va hdr-compute-peak=no tone-mapping=hable This is the result. That is so close to how it looks in madVR when it's passing the metadata to the display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 @howzz1854, here's your blue caped guy. Tell me that's not damn near perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 I'll see if I can find time to install the new release and get some test reading tonight. first day back to work, won't have enough time anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I'll see if I can find time to install the new release and get some test reading tonight. first day back to work, won't have enough time anymore. All good. And maybe hold off, anyway. Another test build was posted, today. I'm back at work, too. But I'll test it out, tonight. Haasn is trying to improve the hdr-compute-peak and scene change detection etc. So big improvements on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyp 21 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Out of interest, will these improvements help those running a 4K HDR setup all of the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Out of interest, will these improvements help those running a 4K HDR setup all of the time? Absolutely! The application of tone mapping etc. is only for HDR content. Once haasn gets everything the way he wants, he'll get it merged, then it'll be rolled into the git builds. But the improvements are massive, so it wouldn't surprise me if we get a full release soon after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 I still think that sending a HDR Meta and passing it through the TV without any tone mapping would be the best result. any tone mapping involved in the process you're altering the EOTF even if the mapping algorithm is close. so if there's plans in the future to implement "HDR Flag passthrough", and I know you're gonna hate me for bringing this up, MadVR supports it; it'll be the most ideal. Tone mapping of any kind is a form of interpretation of the luminance curve, i think it should be left untouched for the HDR tv to process. that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asrequested Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 I still think that sending a HDR Meta and passing it through the TV without any tone mapping would be the best result. any tone mapping involved in the process you're altering the EOTF even if the mapping algorithm is close. so if there's plans in the future to implement "HDR Flag passthrough", and I know you're gonna hate me for bringing this up, MadVR supports it; it'll be the most ideal. Tone mapping of any kind is a form of interpretation of the luminance curve, i think it should be left untouched for the HDR tv to process. that's just me. Oh of course. HDR on an HDR display unchanged is the ultimate. But having a PC being able to do that is getting more and more difficult. What would you do if Microsoft says its too much trouble to maintain, and boils it down to specific gaming parameters? Or just stops it all together? Presently, Android and Windows are the only ones that support it, and with specific criteria. Just look at what's happening with the Shield app. We need a good universal option. And mpv is on the fast track to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howzz1854 18 Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Oh of course. HDR on an HDR display unchanged is the ultimate. But having a PC being able to do that is getting more and more difficult. What would you do if Microsoft says its too much trouble to maintain, and boils it down to specific gaming parameters? Or just stops it all together? Presently, Android and Windows are the only ones that support it, and with specific criteria. Just look at what's happening with the Shield app. We need a good universal option. And mpv is on the fast track to do that. I think the best solution for the time being is for MPV to have an "option" in the advanced setting for toggle between Tone Mapped and Passthrough. until MS finalizes and the industry agrees on a unified workflow, having that option would be the best solution. btw, MS's windows HDR toggle doesn't adhere to the BT 2084 standard. it's actually a straight linear curve than the reference BT 2084. So my feeling is that MS might change their own desktop HDR algorithm again in the near future. problem with BT 2084 is that it makes all the windows 10 icons and elements overblown, so MS prob didn't want to go through all the trouble of overhauling their entire GUI, so figured that they'll use a linear curve so everything looks right. but that means if you toggle MS' HDR mode, you're essentially going to get washed out shadows and dim highlights when you watch an HDR mastered movie. this is an oversight issue that essentially is not on everyone's priority, not MS nor the Motion Picture industry. since Motion Picture industry mainly cares about consumer hardware appliances, which are all BT 2084, and MS doesn't seem to see it as a priority to make sure that colors and gamma are produced correctly for movies inside their OS. this creates the grey area of what we have today in the gaming world. game devs have no idea how to tone map their games, either for BT 2084 or for MS OS HDR. I experienced this with all the recent releases of HDR games, and tested their mapping with the movie standard BT 2084 and MS' OS HDR. it's a mess. you can tell that everyone is all over the places. more the reason that I think having multiple options implemented will at least give the end user a better chance of getting the right output. just like how we have options for how we process the audio, either internally down mixed/decoded, or passthrough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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