HDR passthrough?

[AviatorBimmer 28]

Silly question, but I have a JVC NX7 projector which has an excellent dynamic tone mapping system for HDR movies.

When ET is Direct Playing a HDR movie to my projector, does it passthrough the HDR metadata? I want to make sure I am not double tone mapping.

BTW, when Direct Playing a HDR movie with ET to my JVC projector, the projector's info shows ---- / ---- for the maxCLL and maxFALL. This is what concerns me that perhaps the HDR metadata isn't being passed and double tone mapping is taking place.

Or tone mapping is only being performed by ET when a HDR movie is transcoded, thus I have nothing to worry about then.

Edited June 5, 2022 by AviatorBimmer

[GrimReaper 3330]

10 minutes ago, AviatorBimmer said:

Or tone mapping is only being performed by ET when a HDR movie is transcoded, thus I have nothing to worry about then

Yes. 

[AviatorBimmer 28]

Just now, GrimReaper said:

Yes. 

[generiq 113]

While Emby isn't tone-mapping, the metadata isn't being directly passed to the display. Windows is actually applying the metadata, via the swapchain. It's ostensibly 'passthrough', but instead of the display doing the work, Windows is. This is probably why you are seeing this:

On 6/4/2022 at 11:26 PM, AviatorBimmer said:

the projector's info shows ---- / ---- for the maxCLL and maxFALL.

The HDR puritans don't all agree with Windows doing that. But it levels the playing field. If you have a shite TV, the output will be the same as if you have an expensive TV. Is it the best form of HDR metadata application? No. But for the average person, they can't tell the difference. Most people don't even understand what they're looking at, but they think they can discern what is correct from what is incorrect. They can't. This is the issue with Dolby Vision. People tell themselves that they are seeing something much better than HDR10. They don't take into consideration that what they are looking at is the result of person mapping the colors and adjusting it to a desired level. "Oh wow! There's so much, more color and contrast!" Not realizing that a human has cranked the color to 11. It's like walking into a store to buy a TV. They dial up the color and image settings on some of them to get your attention. It has nothing to do with the technology. At this point, there isn't a great deal of difference. Your eyes can only perceive so much. I had a $3500 TV, I now have a $700 TV. I calibrated both. I know what differences to look for, and do you think I can see much difference between them? I've sold the majority of my tech, because I woke up and realized that I was deluding myself. Soon, all I will have is a laptop. I will get in my truck, and drive into the wilderness. Overlanding, awaits!

Edited June 11, 2022 by generiq

[AviatorBimmer 28]

10 hours ago, generiq said:

While Emby isn't tone-mapping, the metadata isn't being directly passed to the display. Windows is actually applying the metadata, via the swapchain. It's ostensibly 'passthrough', but instead of the display doing the work, Windows is. This is probably why you are seeing this:

The HDR puritans don't all agree with Windows doing that. But it levels the playing field. If you have a shite TV, the output will be the same as if you have an expensive TV. Is it the best form of HDR metadata application? No. But for the average person, they can't tell the difference. Most people don't even understand what they're looking at, but they think they can discern what is correct from what is incorrect. They can't. This is the issue with Doby Vision. People tell themselves that they are seeing something much better than HDR10. They don't take into consideration that what they are looking at is the result of person mapping the colors and adjusting it to a desired level. "Oh wow! There's so much, more color and contrast!" Not realizing that a human has cranked the color to 11. It's like walking into a store to buy a TV. They dial up the color and image settings on some of them to get your attention. It has nothing to do with the technology. At this point, there isn't a great deal of difference. Your eyes can only perceive so much. I had a $3500 TV, I now have a $700 TV. I calibrated both. I know what differences to look for, and do think I can see much difference between them? I've sold the majority of my tech, because I woke up and realized that I was deluding myself. Soon, all I will have is a laptop. I will get in my truck, and drive into the wilderness. Overlanding, awaits!

Thanks for the thorough response, Generiq! Man, there is really NOTHING perfect in this world. Every solution always brings it's own set of issues. Although the Apple TV 4K handles colorspace and refresh rate matching perfectly, it can't bitstream TrueHD/ATMOS tracks from mkv files. I once tried the nVidia Shield Pro (latest model) and although it bitstreams TrueHD/ATMOS tracks nicely, it always had issues with colorspace and refresh rate matching. I ended up selling it and just sticking with the AppleTV 4K.

I move on to ET and Windows, so of course, something has to act up and it's HDR implementation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when running Windows with HDR enabled, do SDR movies simply get "tonemapped" into a BT.2020 container? I did a quick test with the following observations.

I set my Windows to HDR ON. Now my projector has HDR engaged and everything is being transmitted to it in HDR. I do notice my desktop and ET looks a bit richer in color and brightness, but still tolerable.

When I open ET and play an SDR movie that I had watched before in SDR, it looks the same to me, even though it's being projected in HDR.

To double check and confirm this, I played the movie in SDR (Windows with HDR OFF) and in HDR (Windows with HDR ON), and the movie looked IDENTICAL. At least to my eyes.

If this is the case, I can live with it for now. Just leave Windows 10 HDR ON and watch all movies in an HDR container. HDR movies look amazing as expected, and SDR movies look exactly as if watching them in SDR.

It seems like the SDR movie is tonemapped to the HDR container, if that makes any sense.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

Thanks!

[generiq 113]

First, don't confuse HDR with HDR10. HDR is light, the '10' is the color. As for expansion of the colorspace, that will depend on what the player you're using is doing. There is too much information on that for me to fully explain. So I'll confine this to what Theater is currently using. The default is that the SDR (sRGB) is being applied to a bt.2020 colorspace, and Windows is kinda making a mess of it. For best results, mpv should be manually set to bt.2020. mpv has just been updated to greatly improve this, and hopefully Emby will have an update, soon. For more info on those changes, you can read through this thread:

 

[AviatorBimmer 28]

33 minutes ago, generiq said:

First, don't confuse HDR with HDR10. HDR is light, the '10' is the color. As for expansion of the colorspace, that will depend on what the player you're using is doing. There is too much information on that for me to fully explain. So I'll confine this to what Theater is currently using. The default is that the SDR (sRGB) is being applied to a bt.2020 colorspace, and Windows is kinda making a mess of it. For best results, mpv should be manually set to bt.2020. mpv has just been updated to greatly improve this, and hopefully Emby will have an update, soon. For more info on those changes, you can read through this thread:

 

Oh I see, thanks for clarifying. Some times I think I just over complicate things on myself and confuse myself in the process. Maybe by stating what I am after, I can get a better picture (no pun intended) of what I need to do to accomplish it.

I have a large library of movies in SDR and HDR formats.

I want to be able to watch them in SDR when they are in a SDR format and HDR10 when they are in a HDR10 format. If HDR10, just pass the HDR metadata to my projector (JVC NX7) so it can apply it's own DTM.

And for both SDR and HDR movies, bitstream the audio to the receiver.

That's all I ask and want! UGHHHH!!! LOL

 

UPDATE: I read that thread you linked and now I'm more confused. LOL Will that new mpv then allow the metadata to be sent straight to the display? lol

Edited June 6, 2022 by AviatorBimmer

[generiq 113]

26 minutes ago, AviatorBimmer said:

I want to be able to watch them in SDR when they are in a SDR format and HDR10 when they are in a HDR10 format. If HDR10, just pass the HDR metadata to my projector (JVC NX7) so it can apply it's own DTM.

The new app should make all of your dreams come true.

[AviatorBimmer 28]

Just now, generiq said:

The new app should make all of your dreams come true.

 Oh my, so looking forward to it!!!

[generiq 113]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:26 PM, AviatorBimmer said:

BTW, when Direct Playing a HDR movie with ET to my JVC projector, the projector's info shows ---- / ---- for the maxCLL and maxFALL.

https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/issues/10129#issuecomment-1152986691

[AviatorBimmer 28]

3 minutes ago, generiq said:

https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/issues/10129#issuecomment-1152986691

Oh man!!! @Luke we need an updated ET !!

[Luke 37259]

We'll take a look at it. Thanks.