DRM (JRiver Kickstarter)

[FredipusRex 12]

Looks like JRiver is going the Kickstarter route to add DRM (copy once) support to their DVR component.

 

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101223.0

 

They join SiliconDust in the "Kickstart your way to DRM" quest. Given the absolute fuster-cluck that the SD DVR has become, I don't hold out much hope. (The SD folks have basically gone silent for 2 months and they were not particularly open to begin with - the forums are sad. They have a recording engine that's half as good as EmbyTV and the Emby devs would be embarrassed by the slapped-together "next-generation" Kodi interface - imagine a DVR whose only interface was an "any channel" season pass that can't record sports...)

[mellomade 140]

They have a recording engine that's half as good as EmbyTV and the Emby devs would be embarrassed by the slapped-together "next-generation" Kodi interface - imagine a DVR whose only interface was an "any channel" season pass that can't record sports...)

 

I would argue that SD's recording engine is FAR more stable than EmbyTV at the moment.  I have been testing both side-by-side and EmbyTV has tons of trouble with tuner pooling, missed recordings and other hiccups that I do not experience with the SD recording engine.  Judging purely from the recording engine - there is almost nothing further SD really needs to do here.  Fortunately for me I use OTA only and use Emby's Auto Organize to move the SD recordings into my TV Show library - so I only use the Kodi Addon for scheduling recordings.  Which I did at the beginning of Sept and have not touched since.

 

Interface with the recording engine is another story.  I find it funny that SD explicitly stated at the beginning of the KS that the Kodi addon was created first for testing the recording engine only.  And since they have released NO other clients everyone just assumes that it going to be the only way you can talk to the recording engine - EVER.  Those forums are hysterical though watching everyone get so bent out of shape about their $60 contribution.  I spent more than that on gas this week......

 

Handling DRM is obviously a HUGE deal.  Taking on the cable companies monopoly is no small thing - kudos to SD for even trying.  Comparing this to EmbyTV is not quite fair however as EmbyTV does not and likely will never do DRM.

Edited November 17, 2015 by mellomade

[Luke 37094]

i wouldn't say never if there's enough demand. as for tuner pooling, post your issues and we can get them resolved. Keep in mind when spreading the word that the vast majority of users don't run multiple tuner devices, so none of them are seeing that.

[mellomade 140]

To be fair - I have posted about these issues and you've been great about working on these problems - which I realize are not trivial.

 

http://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/25691-multiple-tuners-not-utilized/

 

I will try to run some more tests and gather logs for you to try and improve this.

 

I do have high hopes for EmbyTV as it has come a LONG way and would really be my ideal solution over WMC as I already use Emby for other things.  But SD's engine has been rock solid - and I've been using its recordings over their WMC backups since Sept without issues.

Edited November 17, 2015 by mellomade

[Sammy 737]

i wouldn't say never if there's enough demand. as for tuner pooling, post your issues and we can get them resolved. Keep in mind when spreading the word that the vast majority of users don't run multiple tuner devices, so none of them are seeing that.

I'm interested. I have two HDHR's with one still in the box. I haven't messed with the EmBy recording much so don't know about tuner pooling issues. I currently use it mostly to stream LiveTV over the internet but would LOVE to eliminate paying for Uverse if it weren't for my wife's love affair with it..

 

I need DRM support and am watching what's going on with JRiver too although haven't contributed because I don't use JRiver.. I use EMBY!

Edited November 17, 2015 by Sammy

[KarterJK 35]

I would argue that SD's recording engine is FAR more stable than EmbyTV at the moment.  I have been testing both side-by-side and EmbyTV has tons of trouble with tuner pooling, missed recordings and other hiccups that I do not experience with the SD recording engine.  Judging purely from the recording engine - there is almost nothing further SD really needs to do here.  Fortunately for me I use OTA only and use Emby's Auto Organize to move the SD recordings into my TV Show library - so I only use the Kodi Addon for scheduling recordings.  Which I did at the beginning of Sept and have not touched since.

 

Interface with the recording engine is another story.  I find it funny that SD explicitly stated at the beginning of the KS that the Kodi addon was created first for testing the recording engine only.  And since they have released NO other clients everyone just assumes that it going to be the only way you can talk to the recording engine - EVER.  Those forums are hysterical though watching everyone get so bent out of shape about their $60 contribution.  I spent more than that on gas this week......

 

Handling DRM is obviously a HUGE deal.  Taking on the cable companies monopoly is no small thing - kudos to SD for even trying.  Comparing this to EmbyTV is not quite fair however as EmbyTV does not and likely will never do DRM.

I am an SD kickstart client, and much of the problem with SD is that they really have not defined exactly what to expect, and virtually very little feed back.  I think that is what most of their users are upset about.  Personally, I was skeptical from the start, due to the lack of details they DIDN'T provide.  I think most people thought it was to be a Media Center replacement with DRM, which apparently it certainly is not.  It still unclear as to what their actual plans are.  Also, their engine is riddled with problems, so I think to call it stable, is not quite accurate.

 

Let us face it EMBY already has 95% of what WMC is (plus more), and SD's little project. As for DRM, all of those guide lines are already in place, so I don't think it is so much the cable companies that fight it, as it was the entertainment industry over all (they want everyone to pay every time they look at the title), but I don't believe it is that big of an issue any longer.  I believe EMBY would certainly approach DRM, if and when a greater demand emerged, they seem to be very resourceful.  IMHO.

Edited November 29, 2015 by KarterJK

[whitestrat13 33]

I am an SD kickstart client, and much of the problem with SD is that they really have not defined exactly what to expect, and virtually very little feed back. I think that is what most of their users are upset about. Personally, I was skeptical from the start, due to the lack of details they DIDN'T provide. I think most people thought it was to be a Media Center replacement with DRM, which apparently it certainly is not. It still unclear as to what their actual plans are. Also, their engine is riddled with problems, so I think to call it stable, is not quite accurate.

 

Let us face it EMBY already has 95% of what WMC is (plus more), and SD's little project. As for DRM, all of those guide lines are already in place, so I don't think it is so much the cable companies that fight it, as it was the entertainment industry over all (they want everyone to pay every time they look at the title), but I don't believe it is that big of an issue any longer. I believe EMBY would certainly approach DRM, if and when a greater demand emerged, they seem to be very resourceful. IMHO.

I agree with this 100%. If DRM was truly high in demand, the devs would find a way.

 

I do, however, think if emby could deliver tivo like dvr simplicity their user base would explode. If people could install a program on a spare PC (emby server) and plug a device into their router (hdhr prime) and all of their cable channels just work along with the guide data people would be extatic. This community is full of power users who are able to trouble shoot complex systems and dig in the registry for solutions. The average person just wants to double click an installer, and plug a cable in and things work.

 

I have many friends who are sick of their cable company's dvrs and tivos due to high rental fees and limited space. The ability to stream local content in addition to recordings is a huge plus for them too. People are willing to pay $12.50 a month for TiVo service. If emby could deliver recording and playback of drm content at a similar price point, this could be a huge opportunity to grow the user base.

 

As always, I trust the devs are making the best decisions for the platform as a whole, and if this just doesn't make sense I'm cool with that.

 

Thanks for all of your hard work @@Luke and the rest of the dev team.

 

 

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[mellomade 140]

There certainly is a difference between what the KS is and what people want it to be - and I agree that most of the plantiffs on SD's boards are the latter.  Their feedback could be much better than it has been - but it wouldn't change anything.  SD is a hardware company trying to make software in a space that has been evolving at light speed for more than a decade.  Eventually they might get it right - but they don't have time.  They - like many of their users - hung onto WMC for far too long.  EmbyTV has already passed them and then some.

 

Dealing with DRM at this point is a waste of time for projects like Emby.  The devs of course have stated that if there is enough interest they would pursue it.  But there won't be.  SD's only hope in the short term is that they crank out a recording engine with enough features in the API that make it a rock solid recording platform for use in other players like Kodi.  But even that is a long shot considering that their entire platform is cloud based and the subscription requirements.  I would much rather pay for Schedules Direct and not be tied to SD's cloud service if my internet ever dropped.

 

People can hope and wish for J River to succeed too - but chances are all those people have never actually tried to use JRiver's program.  It isn't any better than WMC.  And it's currently only at 3% of its funding goal.  Emby Theater will likely kill that one too - and not just because it's free.

 

Also, their engine is riddled with problems, so I think to call it stable, is not quite accurate.

 

Just out of curiousity - can you elaborate on the engine problems you are 'riddled' with?  Because I have been recording 20+ shows/week on this thing for the past three months without a single hiccup.

[Luke 37094]

I agree that JRiver is a little late to the party. Plus their development is limited to windows right now. It seems like by the time they have a solution people will have already moved onto other things.

[KarterJK 35]

 

Just out of curiousity - can you elaborate on the engine problems you are 'riddled' with?  Because I have been recording 20+ shows/week on this thing for the past three months without a single hiccup.

Well reading the forums, there are numerous problems reported.  You may have a stable experience, while for others, it certainly doesn't seem to be the case.  Personally, in using VIEW I have problems with video and audio, whereas my WMC, Kodi, EMBY have none.  Which is strange because early on VIEW worked great.  Just my experience, I am sure users mileage will vary, and if I am not mistaken they still rely on others codecs. Please, don't get me wrong, I like SD and the people, I just think software may not be their forte.

 

But back to JRiver.  Having never used it before, I decided to give it a try.  I was not impressed in even the least, and to pay for it.  Well, I wouldn't spend money on it.  To those that use it, fine.  I may try it again in the future but, it didn't seem to suit my needs.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KarterJK

[FredipusRex 12]

Well, after six months or so of cryptic non-answers, SiliconDust finally admitted that its odd no-grid DVR UI was due to a Rovi lawsuit threat. The "good" news is that they seem to be really thinking about workarounds now - providing APIs to run the DVR backend, extending licensed guides (e.g., Android TV) and, most interestingly, letting third-party apps run their View client. This would be a great addition to EmbyTV, as it, in theory, would let Emby do the guide GUI but let the SD View app handle the DRM requirements.

 

I suspect the Emby devs probably already know about this as they've said they've been in contact with SD in the past. Emby + View might be a cable DVR buster!

[ebr 14921]

Do you have a reference for this information?  Was the threat purely associated with the presentation of TV data in a grid guide?  I seem to recall that, at one point anyway, TV Guide actually held a patent on that presentation but I can't imagine that is still the case.

[jasonmcroy 315]

Well, I just noticed this thread and felt I could chime in since I too paid the 60.00 to test the HD solution. I totally agree that the recording engine for the HD DVR has been rock solid but the interface just isn't there yet. That is what they are working hard on right now.

 

I recall checking out the Jriver player about a year ago with their free trial and I did not like it at all. They are also very limited with the one platform they support. I don't think they will make their goal.

[mellomade 140]

Do you have a reference for this information?  Was the threat purely associated with the presentation of TV data in a grid guide?  I seem to recall that, at one point anyway, TV Guide actually held a patent on that presentation but I can't imagine that is still the case.

 

https://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=28936&start=90#p169167

 

TV Guide (Gemstar) was bought by Macrovision in 2008 - and Macrovision is now Rovi.

[ebr 14921]

Okay, so TV Guide still actually holds a patent on the grid presentation of TV channels and programming.  Amazing.

[xnappo 1593]

If SD just works on an API and a View client good things will happen!

[rarefc3s 1]

Well, after six months or so of cryptic non-answers, SiliconDust finally admitted that its odd no-grid DVR UI was due to a Rovi lawsuit threat. The "good" news is that they seem to be really thinking about workarounds now - providing APIs to run the DVR backend, extending licensed guides (e.g., Android TV) and, most interestingly, letting third-party apps run their View client. This would be a great addition to EmbyTV, as it, in theory, would let Emby do the guide GUI but let the SD View app handle the DRM requirements.

 

I suspect the Emby devs probably already know about this as they've said they've been in contact with SD in the past. Emby + View might be a cable DVR buster!

 

 

If SD just works on an API and a View client good things will happen!

 

This and this. Yes! The API could include the guide data too since it already does it. No need to pay for the guide service then. Pass guide data and DRM stream to Emby. WIN. I'd pay for Emby in a heartbeat at that point. TWC has nearly all HD channels marked DRM. I assume Silicon Dust paid to license PlayReady as I can view DRM channles via their VIEW app on my Android/Shiled TV box.

Edited January 5, 2016 by rarefc3s

[Sammy 737]

 

 

 

This and this. Yes! The API could include the guide data too since it already does it. No need to pay for the guide service then. Pass guide data and DRM stream to Emby. WIN. I'd pay for Emby in a heartbeat at that point. TWC has nearly all HD channels marked DRM. I assume Silicon Dust paid to license PlayReady as I can view DRM channles via their VIEW app on my Android/Shiled TV box.

 

 

I'd put up more than I already paid for sure as this would be the Holy Grail! I'm not sure why you aren't paying now because so much more is available with Premiere. It is a bargain, I think. 

[Sammy 737]

https://www.silicondust.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=28936&start=90#p169167

 

TV Guide (Gemstar) was bought by Macrovision in 2008 - and Macrovision is now Rovi.

I read that post and a few following then jumped to the end of the thread, skipping quite a few pages. I'm wondering if there's a post in there with an updated status on this. Also, maybe this topic should have its own thread as it isn't about the JRiver DRM DVR at all.

[mellomade 140]

No need to pay for the guide service then. Pass guide data and DRM stream to Emby. WIN.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Free guide service will likely never happen.  The guide available on the SD tuners currently is limited to 2 hrs - unless you have a subscription through SD which pushes you out to the standard 14 days.  And that free 2 hr window could go away once their solution is in the wild.  Besides $30/yr is completely worth it for reliable guide data.

 

Also the DRM stream will also likely never pass directly to Emby.  That is the whole point of a targeted DRM capable player - you can only playback DRM streams in that player.  It will be interesting to see how good VIEW is as a stand alone player though.  If it is reasonable then it could be used as an external player - but this will likely only happen on Windows.  Meh....

 

 

 

 

[Sammy 737]

I don't mind paying for guide service but really do want a grid style guide. I don't think that it needs improvement as it works well. What I am surprised about is that they were allowed to patent what is basically a calendar. I'll steer clear of the political BS behind this though.

[mellomade 140]

Patent trolls like Rovi certainly are annoying - and potentially lethal for small companies like SD.

 

A solution like Emby Theater is promising for using a grid guide though.  It could handle guide data just as it does for OTA and just be set to launch VIEW as an external player for any live TV.  That gets messy though because I don't think there is any way to turn off SD's UI and just use it as a player.  Maybe though - I don't know.

[Sammy 737]

Patent trolls like Rovi certainly are annoying - and potentially lethal for small companies like SD.

 

A solution like Emby Theater is promising for using a grid guide though.  It could handle guide data just as it does for OTA and just be set to launch VIEW as an external player for any live TV.  That gets messy though because I don't think there is any way to turn off SD's UI and just use it as a player.  Maybe though - I don't know.

I responded over here as it seems to be the more appropriate thread.

[mellomade 140]

Agreed.  This thread is as dead as JRiver's kickstarter......

[rarefc3s 1]

I'd put up more than I already paid for sure as this would be the Holy Grail! I'm not sure why you aren't paying now because so much more is available with Premiere. It is a bargain, I think. 

 

I just installed Emby Server on an old Windows 7 machine to play with it at the same time my new HD PRIME tuner and Shield TV just came in. I was hoping to find an Android solution/replacement for WMC. I already own a decent windows machine as main HTPC that would become the Embry server.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Free guide service will likely never happen.  The guide available on the SD tuners currently is limited to 2 hrs - unless you have a subscription through SD which pushes you out to the standard 14 days.  And that free 2 hr window could go away once their solution is in the wild.  Besides $30/yr is completely worth it for reliable guide data.

 

Also the DRM stream will also likely never pass directly to Emby.  That is the whole point of a targeted DRM capable player - you can only playback DRM streams in that player.  It will be interesting to see how good VIEW is as a stand alone player though.  If it is reasonable then it could be used as an external player - but this will likely only happen on Windows.  Meh....

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't realize the guide limitations as I've happily been using a Ceton tuner since it came out and replaced my ATI internal cablecard tuner which was an S-card - single stream! I'd gladly pay for all of it if I can get it working as well as WMC/Ceton/Xbox was for me. DRM is a terrible issue for me on Time Warner though.

 

I'm trying to switch out to a simple front end device, the Sheild TV, and am heavily invested in the Android/Google ecosystem; two Nexus 5 phones, Asus Android phone, Galaxy tablet, Shield TV etc. The end result for me may be clear QAM and more streaming/on demand access via apps etc. The wife and kids just want it to turn on and work too. They love Media Center for TV and our movies.