Looking to replace desktop with a NAS - 418 or 218+?

[drapacioli 6]

So I used to run an i7-7600 machine for my emby usage. Unfortunately it has bitten the dust due to a power supply failure that took out some components with it, so I'm taking the opportunity to replace it with a regular NAS and some new drives for more simplicity and better power efficiency. The old system was a case of extreme overkill, I don't think I ever really stressed it that much even when transcoding since it only ever had to serve 1 user at a time.

 

I took advantage of a best buy deal for two 12TB shuckables, and now I'm just looking for a place to put them that'll do the job I need. 

 

Since I bought two drives, I started looking at 2-bay NAS units, and saw the 218+ is often-recommended on tech sites and places like reddit for its versatility. It has an intel processor and 2GB RAM (expandable to 6), and it seems to be a dependable unit. I can get one for about $270. 

 

However, while I was looking I also saw a 418 model (just DS418, not the j model or play model) for just $70 more, which would give me two more bays to expand into as I grow my system. However, this unit is *not* an intel chip, instead it uses a quad core realtek chip that's clocked lower and doesn't have a turbo capability. The RAM is also not user servicable, so it's permanently stuck at 2GB.

 

There's apparently a "play" model too which has that intel chip added back, but it's a further $90 and I just can't reasonably justify spending that much more right now over the 218+, considering the cost of the new drives as well. 

 

So, is there any advantage to the intel chip vs the ARM one? It seems like a weird comparison and I'm not sure which will perform better for transcoding (I have a lot of dual-language anime shows which require subtitle transcoding on some client devices). The Intel unit has better clock speeds, but fewer cores. Which is more important in transcoding? 

[Luke 37060]

@@FrostByte do you have experience with this model?

[FrostByte 5049]

Yes, and between the DS218+ and DS418 I would go with the DS218+ or else you will be hating life when you have to transcode.  From what James said va-api requires an Intel to work.  Unless you absolutely know you will not be doing any transcoding go with the Intel.  The DS418play would be a better choice than the DS418

[drapacioli 6]

Ok, that pretty much answers all I need to know, I'll go ahead and get the DS218+.

 

Thank you!

[drapacioli 6]

OK, so I did wind up buying the DS218+, but it does seem to be struggling mightily with transcoding, even when using VAAPI hardware acceleration. Are there some settings I can tweak to improve performance? The transcoding framerate starts out fine at around 30fps, but it slowly dips as the video keeps playing. I stopped tracking it once the transcoding fps hit 15, which was well below the playback fps of 24. This isn't even a high bitrate file, it's 1080p @ ~2.1mbps, but it does make heavy use of ASS subtitles with various fonts and placements.

 

 

ffmpeg log attached. Note: I did *disable* subtitle extraction on the fly, this was to force transcoding during local testing. The issue was reported to me by my sister, who was trying to play this file on her roku. I guess that doesn't support the subtitle format natively like the web player my Shield TV does (though the Shield TV fails to position the subtitles correctly...I think that's more a separate client issue than anything).

 

ffmpeg-transcode-3c4e6caa-d73e-4b4d-a922-451e78563536_1.txt

Edited December 3, 2019 by drapacioli

[Luke 37060]

OK, so I did wind up buying the DS218+, but it does seem to be struggling mightily with transcoding, even when using VAAPI hardware acceleration. Are there some settings I can tweak to improve performance? The transcoding framerate starts out fine at around 30fps, but it slowly dips as the video keeps playing. I stopped tracking it once the transcoding fps hit 15, which was well below the playback fps of 24. This isn't even a high bitrate file, it's 1080p @ ~2.1mbps, but it does make heavy use of ASS subtitles with various fonts and placements.

 

stats.png

 

ffmpeg log attached. Note: I did *disable* subtitle extraction on the fly, this was to force transcoding during local testing. The issue was reported to me by my sister, who was trying to play this file on her roku. I guess that doesn't support the subtitle format natively like the web player my Shield TV does (though the Shield TV fails to position the subtitles correctly...I think that's more a separate client issue than anything).

 

ffmpeg-transcode-3c4e6caa-d73e-4b4d-a922-451e78563536_1.txt

 

This example is burning in subtitles given that you've disabled extraction. Please see here for an explanation on why this is so costly:

 

https://github.com/MediaBrowser/Wiki/wiki/Hardware-Acceleration-Overview#troubleshooting

 

Short answer is avoid burning in subtitles.

[drapacioli 6]

All respect, I think you missed my point. Some client devices don't support the subtitles or display them incorrectly. I specifically asked about transcoding when burning in subtitles when asking about the device earlier and I was told to get an intel device for enough power to do this. Turning off extraction was the only way I could test this locally without running out and buying a Roku stick or something.

Edited December 3, 2019 by drapacioli

[Luke 37060]

I notice you're playing from the web app. The .ass subtitle support is very good and has libass embedded. Roku will be limited though.

 

I know that you did ask about this in the original post, but this is just hard to predict because most people are not designing a server around the requirement of burning in subtitles. It's usually about trying to avoid it. One option, if you're willing, is to convert them so that the subtitles are burned in ahead of time.

[drapacioli 6]

Yes, web app support for these is excellent. Not sure how to use the web app on the TV though. 

 

Burning in the subtitles...I've thought of it, and it would be a major ordeal. I have 1,500 anime episodes that are single language with subtitles, and 1,400 that are dual language (english and japanese) with different subtitles for each version. I'd have to make two copies of the dual audio files (which defeats the purpose of making them in the first place). That's ~4,500 files. Assuming 30 minutes via handbrake to encode, we're talking 187 days of nonstop encoding to get that done. Even if I took every computer I had available and split the jobs out to run 24/7, it'd take me several months to get done assuming no interruptions, and no new shows are brought in. Right now no, I'm not really willing to take that on.

 

So that in mind, are there other alternatives besides going back to my i7 server? I realize this isn't your doing or anything, but this is rather frustrating. My main streaming device is a Shield TV, will that possible fare any better as the server, using the NAS as remote storage?

 

EDIT: Is it possible to grab external subtitles, and override the use of them over the internal ones on clients that don't support the ASS format, to avoid transcoding?

Edited December 3, 2019 by drapacioli

[flakie 11]

Is it possible to export/extract the ass subtitles and convert to srt. Maybe with something like gMKVExtract? Edit. I *think* it may be possible to open the ass with notepad and save as srt? If I am wrong, which I often am, Subtitle Edit app should work.

Myself, I never use embedded subtitles any more. I have been working through my files to extract them (using gMKVExtract) and then remove the subs and multiplex using MKVToolNix. Mine are already all srt which makes it easier. Takes less than a minute movie.

Edited December 11, 2019 by flakie

[drapacioli 6]

I found a partial solution to this, in case anyone stumbled upon the same problem. So, the issue I was having is that the hardware acceleration was working at maybe 90% of the speed of the video playback. Oddly enough, the *software* transcoding option works faster in a lot of cases, often allowing for buffering-free playback with no other changes. This seems to work for most of my h.264 files except those in 1080p 10-bit (720p seems OK) and those with a high profile. Lower bitrates also seem to help.

 

I'm not sure why this is the case considering HW acceleration is typically more efficient. Perhaps it would be nice if we could selectively disable hardware transcoding for certain subtitle formats that may struggle in HW? Either that or a playback-level or even show/library level toggle?

 

Long term I will probably buy an intel NUC and run the emby server from there so I can squeeze out better encoding quality. I've tested out several videos on an i7-8550U and it manages all of the more demanding videos I've tried. I think a 10th gen quad or hexa core U-series processor will be able to handle these workloads with ease.

Edited January 7, 2020 by drapacioli

[Dedone 15]

i can just say (without too much techincal specifications) that i run my media server on a 218+ without any problems. I can manage 4k H265 files, 10bit H264 and normal H265 simply and the trancoding in the web app work fast and flush. About the transmission inside the local network, i use generally an ipad or a Sony XF90 that doesn't require any type of transcoding

[drapacioli 6]

Are you using PGS/ASS subtitles though? That's the main issue at hand. The server has absolutely no trouble transcoding *regular* videos (without image or ASS subtitles) using hardware acceleration for me either.

[Dedone 15]

With PG I'm not able to reproduce the subtitles via browser, but with ASS no problem in trascoding

[drapacioli 6]

You might want to check your video resolution - that's a really, really low res file. 720x301 isn't even full 480p. I'm having issues transcoding with 1080p videos which are 6x as many pixels. Even 720p is 2.66x that resolution. It's expected that higher resolutions are more taxing for transcoding.

Edited January 8, 2020 by drapacioli

[Dedone 15]

No problem also if I make it in 1080

[drapacioli 6]

...And how is your bitrate 54 kbps? And why is the video height not 1080?

 

You know what, can I send you a PM with a sample clip of a video I'm having issues with? That would eliminate any weird variables here. 

[Dedone 15]

just because i make a simple test on the fly trough firefox and unfortunately i've a poor connection at home (30/3), That's the reason

[Dedone 15]

...And how is your bitrate 54 kbps? And why is the video height not 1080?

 

You know what, can I send you a PM with a sample clip of a video I'm having issues with? That would eliminate any weird variables here. 

ok

[drapacioli 6]

ok

 

Sent you a small sample clip - the conversion is actually easier on the server than the original source file.

 

On this particular video and using HW transcoding, I get maybe 18fps best case during subtitle scenes, with dips as low as 2-4. With software transcoding at CRF: 28 and preset: auto, it'll will run fine until about midway through the opening credits, where it'll drop to around 22fps. The original source file will start skipping immediately once the opening credits start.

Edited January 8, 2020 by drapacioli

[Dedone 15]

This is how it works in TV on the local network. As I can see maybe there is something with the file codification, because it start immediately with the transcode instead normal transmission. Anyway everything works, both subtitles and video.

[drapacioli 6]

Yes, so you experience the same issue - 22fps is not greater than the 24 on the source file. Given enough uninterrupted subtitles, it'll eventually need to buffer. Still, it's slightly better than what I am seeing. Would you mind sharing your transcoding settings?

Edited January 8, 2020 by drapacioli

[Dedone 15]

Sure

[drapacioli 6]

Thank you. I'll see what I get when matching your settings.

[Luke 37060]

Regarding pgs, please take a look at the troubleshooting section of our hardware acceleration setup guide:

https://github.com/MediaBrowser/Wiki/wiki/Hardware-Acceleration-Overview#troubleshooting

Thanks.