Slow Tuning - HDHR

[Dave_1959 2]

2 hours ago, ebr said:

Okay, so it sounds like everything you tested was interlaced and that is the thing that makes them not direct stream.

Thanks.

No I don't believe so. AFAIK the Freeview HD channels are all 1080i and I've some that do direct play and some that don't.

I don't have a problem with "direct stream" just "direct play" 

I'd estimate that 50% of the free view channels won't direct play using the built in Emby player but ALL work with say Kodi or HDHR client.

All I want is to stop my wife complaint about the load speed on live TV . When set to not direct play (either direct stream or transcode) live channels can take over 10+ seconds to load but recordings load very fast (also Transcoding / direct streaming). Surely this suggests something is delaying / timing out before the live stream starts transcoding ?

if, for reasons we aren't sure about, some channels won't direct play with the Emby shield TV player, then surely the transcode (to direct stream or full) should be no slower than loading a recording?

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Dave_1959

[Luke 37008]

Transcoding a live stream is a little more complex than a completed recording. It may take slightly longer.

[Dave_1959 2]

11 minutes ago, Luke said:

Transcoding a live stream is a little more complex than a completed recording. It may take slightly longer.

Thanks Luke but surely not 5x longer ?

And it still leaves the question why HDHR client and Kodi can open ALL channels within 2 seconds ?

[PristDean 13]

I can sympathise with these symptoms, I experienced a start time for channels of approx 5 seconds, not bad. But leaving a channel going back to the guide, would take many seconds and leaving the guide to back to the dashboard would take ten seconds or so. Also experienced pauses on channel start up. After reading this thread, my Live TV settings are now:

Direct Live TV Stream - Disabled

Start time - Fast

Allow Video Stream Copy - Disabled 

PLAYBACK SETTINGS

Buffer size - Medium

De-interlace settings - Enabled

 

Now channels exit quickly, no lag, no channel start pausing either, Emby performing well.  The big change for me was... disable    Allow Video Stream Copy

[Carlo 4330]

5 hours ago, Dave_1959 said:

Thanks Luke but surely not 5x longer ?

And it still leaves the question why HDHR client and Kodi can open ALL channels within 2 seconds ?

HDHR client and Kodi are clients that only run on certain platforms that have the ability to play the codecs that would be in the streams.  These only work on the same LAN as well and don't have to deal with low bandwidth or Internet environments.

Emby is much more complex, has to deal with fluctuating bandwidth, Internet connectivity with clients that may have limits set for bandwidth as well as clients that can't play back the stream even it got it directly from the hardware.

Not to mentioned that Emby can allowing sharing of a tuner so you could have 10 people in the house watching CNN while also recording the show and only one tuner would get used!  So Emby has far more overhead in what it may need to accomplish at any time.

When you have a client that is already known to have the bandwidth available (LAN), can play all the codecs that will be in the stream it's quite easy to connect and use them as is but with Emby it has to probe the steam to see what it consists off, the codecs being used, determine, etc

That's an over simplification of course and not posted as an excuse but this is a bit of apples to oranges comparison in speed based on how they function or could function.  With that said improving speed is always something the devs are looking at.

[PristDean 13]

Appears I spoke too soon.  Emby now displays a blank screen but continues with the sound when I exit from a Live TV channel after watching for say 1/2 an hour or more. Then takes 7 seconds or so to get back to the guide. If I watch the channel for a far shorter period, drops back to guide quickly. Seems no what you change you cannot win.

Edited July 11, 2020 by PristDean

[Carlo 4330]

@PristDean What client are you using?

[PristDean 13]

Server:  NAS 4,4,3,0   Client on Android TV (NVidia Shield) - v 1.8.10g

Both Shield & NAS are on the same LAN, part of the same VLAN on a managed hub.  On that same network is a CCTV camera (only transfers data when accessed via an app), a PS4 (only transfers data when being used and updating itself etc) and a HDHR Quattro. So no bandwidth contention or restrictions on data transfer in place.

Live TV just doe not work on certain channels, such as C4 HD. With 'Allow stream copy' enabled etc,  my optimal performance setting for Emby still result in a lag of 5 seconds or more when exiting the guide back to the dash. after watching a channel for a while. The symptoms appear to me, to be that Emby is struggling to close down a 'session' with a channel that has been watched for a wile.  My server cache settings are set to default.

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by PristDean

[ebr 14903]

16 hours ago, PristDean said:

Appears I spoke too soon.  Emby now displays a blank screen but continues with the sound when I exit from a Live TV channel after watching for say 1/2 an hour or more. Then takes 7 seconds or so to get back to the guide. If I watch the channel for a far shorter period, drops back to guide quickly. Seems no what you change you cannot win.

Hi.  This is fixed in the version currently under review by Google.  You can also install the beta.

[PristDean 13]

I only updated the application on the Shield about three or four days ago... so you are saying there is another version in the pipeline?.. what version number will it be ?

[ebr 14903]

1.8.11 is under review.

[Dave_1959 2]

Thanks @PristDean for the settings. I've given them a try with mixed results and I'm now starting to think that there is something more fundamental wrong with my setup as I'm getting widely different loading times for live TV (but never what I would call fast <5 seconds, more typically 10+ seconds ). Monitoring the server (Win 10 i5 8GB) it's not maxing out (far front it). The FFMPEG process fires up within 1-2 seconds but I just get the spinning wheel for what seems forever on the Shield Client. This is same on a second shield unit. The network is fully Gigabit and all relevant units are cabled not wi-fi.

I have to say that I do find some of the Emby Shield Client settings confusing. For example it seems that some "Playback" settings also affect "Live TV".  The Stats for Nerds showing Direct Play for up to 5 seconds when live play eventually starts before changing to Direct Stream or Transcode doesn't help either. I've had to resort to Trial and error with the combination of different settings and still not really feel I've achieved a satisfactory result to simply watch live TV quickly.

@cayars thanks also for the info and whilst I can understand the challenges you mention I would have thought that Emby would "know" if a client is LAN based and could be more optimised for such, especially as it has the advantage of Emby code running at both ends. I've just tested using NextPVR on the same server and Kodi as the client on the shield and Live TV loads quickly (although sometimes with a small amount of buffering after loading). The UI isn't anything as nice or good as Emby though  .

To make matters worse we've also had several client lockups sometimes the playback just freezes other times it's when existing a program (or recording).

Ideally I believe (and happy to be corrected) that "Direct Play" should be the quickest solution, with an automatic fall back to Direct Stream if Emby detects it can't Direct Play (with EMby code at both sides I feel this should be a simple handshake at the start ?) and as a final option fall back to transcoding. That way if some channels can direct play they will. At the moment if Direct play is enabled there appears to be no fall back if a channel doesn't work for some reason.

I think of myself as being reasonably technical (I owned and ran a software development company for 30 years) but still don't really know if what I'm experiencing is "the norm" and something other users accept or if it really is an issue with Emby or my setup / installation. I'm keen to do anything to progress this (if indeed it can be progressed).

Sorry to sound so negative ( I don't mean to) but I'm just frustrated not being able to understand/resolve these issues with a product that, on the face of things appears to be a great and ideal system for my use.

 

[PristDean 13]

Thanks @Dave_1959 Great post, you are certainly not alone and the behaviours you describe have been apparent for me for a long time. My setup sounds reasonably similar to yours, although I am running Emby server on an Synology NAS, which is running fine and not stretched at all.All said and done it does appear to be a shortcoming of the Emby application itself, as Kodi etc work better on the same architecture.

Performance of the application is key to the consumer. Let's hope this all gets to a much better place soon !

[ebr 14903]

5 hours ago, Dave_1959 said:

For example it seems that some "Playback" settings also affect "Live TV".

Hi.  One is a subset of the other...

"Playback" pertains to all playback whereas "Live TV" only to Live TV playback.

Does that make sense?

[Dave_1959 2]

10 hours ago, ebr said:

Hi.  One is a subset of the other...

"Playback" pertains to all playback whereas "Live TV" only to Live TV playback.

Does that make sense?

It's sort of what I worked out by trial and error  but I feel could be a lot clearer with just some additional words on the Settings screen to explain that perhaps?

In addition the wording I feel doesn't help (unless you are fully in the "know") in some instances particularly with regard to Direct Play vs Direct Stream vs Full Transcode. Having spend time researching and googling I believe I understand the true meanings.

e.g. On the Playback menu it uses "Allow Direct Play of TS Files" but on the Live TV Menu is refers to "Direct Stream live TV" for what I "think" is meant to be the same (Direct Play ?)? 

e.g 2 On the Live TV menu it then refers to "Allow Video Stream copy" which it suggests you disable if you are having "trouble" playing live streams - It's not clear if this also refers to Direct Play. So if "Direct Stream live TV" is enabled and "Allow video Stream copy" is disabled which wins ?

Overall the setting menu wording seems to assume that the end user fully knows what they are doing and not just an "end user"  and even then I'd suggest it's very confusing for all but the developers and full experts

[Dave_1959 2]

15 hours ago, PristDean said:

Performance of the application is key to the consumer. Let's hope this all gets to a much better place soon !

My thoughts exactly. I know from first hand experience that developers and associated testers etc. can be too close to product and, rightly, can get quite defensive of it. It's a very difficult skill to be able to view a system you are very close to in the eyes of a "typical user".

I hope that the questions and issues we have both raised (along with others on the forum) can be worked on to improve the end users experience.

For me if this live TV loading speed issue can be sorted (or at least qualified as being an issue in the first instance) then that will be a big step forward. There are then other more minor improvements that I feel could greatly enhance the product.

[Carlo 4330]

The Devs realize exactly how things work and the performance issues on certain platforms.  There has been certain options on clients to help with this but as Luke has recently said in the forums there is an ongoing Live TV project which will be available in the near future.

The devs most certainly listen to feedback and use this feedback in new software designs for sure!  Stay tuned and have a little bit more patience.

[Dave_1959 2]

@cayars, it's not impatience, it's frustration with not having a clear understanding if there is any actual issue with Emby's speed or if it's a configuration issue or if it's a system issue at my end.

The requesting logs from me in the first instance suggested that it isn't a known Emby issue, but your reply now suggests that it is!. Which is it ?

The trial and error of blindly setting of different options has only increased my frustration as it may help some effects but break others. e.g. Enabling direct play works for some channels but then just hangs on others with no fall back, error or anything. Add my comments made earlier re the confusing setup terminology  and ......

 

By "available in the near future." what approx time scale are you thinking? (I know it's not an easy question and not something you can be held to)

[ebr 14903]

3 hours ago, Dave_1959 said:

e.g. On the Playback menu it uses "Allow Direct Play of TS Files" but on the Live TV Menu is refers to "Direct Stream live TV" for what I "think" is meant to be the same (Direct Play ?)? 

Actually, no, the wording is correct there.  Live TV streams never direct play (straight from the tuner).  This is for a number of reasons you can see discussed out here.

If I had my druthers, none of those options would exist at all but, unfortunately, due to the incredibly wide variety of possible content that can be delivered this way, all of these very technical options are currently necessary.  I agree they must be confusing to the average end user.

[Spaceboy 2493]

poor response from cayars imo. there is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.

[ebr 14903]

1 minute ago, Spaceboy said:

poor response from cayars imo. there is definitely an issue here that needs looking into.

The problem is that it isn't something that just needs to be addressed at a client interface.  The issue is systemic and needs to be addressed at that level - which we are currently working on but it is a HUGE issue that simply takes time.

[Spaceboy 2493]

but we have other UK Freeview users not experiencing the problems that Dave_1959 is reporting

[Dave_1959 2]

2 hours ago, ebr said:

Actually, no, the wording is correct there.  Live TV streams never direct play (straight from the tuner).  This is for a number of reasons you can see discussed out here.

@ebr, perhaps you could provide a link as it seems my understanding from searching is incorrect.

Having said that I've just done a quick test. -

1. Enabled "Direct Stream live TV" on the Live TV Menu
2. Attempted to load BBC HD - Loaded in 2 seconds and Stats for Nerds show "Direct Play" -

So enabling "Direct Stream live TV" actually has enabled "Direct Play" ! (Or at least for the channels that work and don't just never load!)

 

[Carlo 4330]

Dave are your problem channels AAC_LATM audio by any chance?

Do channels that work not have AAC_LATM audio?

[Dave_1959 2]

2 hours ago, ebr said:

The problem is that it isn't something that just needs to be addressed at a client interface.  The issue is systemic and needs to be addressed at that level - which we are currently working on but it is a HUGE issue that simply takes time.

With due respect my main issue isn't a client interface one. If it was then some combination of settings (as confusing as they may be - or not) would sort it.

My issue is more fundamental I feel. I'd be over the moon to be told it's just my set up and if I do X, Y and Z that will fix it.