Is an Open-Source Core Really That Big a Deal?

[legallink 187]

Yes, and emby.com and emby.net are completely legit uses.

[Perplexed 25]

The more I hear, the less I like their ethics and project.

 

I actually take back that I wish them success... I don't think they deserve it.

[denz 426]

I would be surprised if they survive couple of months like many opensource projects it is all go at beginning and then everything cools down and disappears I think they don't understand how big a project emby is.

[chef 3745]

Edited December 21, 2018 by chef

[Charlie117 56]

I can understand, by putting some of the puzzle pieces together, that the Emby devs needed to close off certain parts of the code because of 1) new proprietary code additions in 3.6 that cannot be open sourced and 2) low level scum circumventing the Emby Premiere paywall by offering forked nulled versions of Emby server. Both reasons are in my opinion valid, although I do wonder whether those new proprietary code additions are worth dropping the open source status for, but time will tell as always. I don't know enough about anti-piracy measures to comment on that, but I assume the Emby devs have explored all the options that could have kept everything open source.

 

I personally hoped that the closed/open source decision on certain parts of the code was made the other way around. So making the core open source and moving any proprietary or piracy sensitive code to closed source modules. The again, I'm sure the devs explored this option and voted against it for a good reason.

 

Finally, with the release of Emby server 3.6 I do hope it will be accompanied by an announcement with more information on this whole change.

 

Feel free to disagree, I don't care. It's just my opinion. I do have a ton of respect for the Emby devs.

[Chyron 221]

I could see open source being an advantage if there were a considerable number of community-volunteers debugging and contributing to the code itself. As it is, since code contributions coming from outside of the the devs and staff themselves are apparently very few and far between, I'm not sure what the actual benefit is outside of having a shiny GPL FOSS badge.

 

From where I'm standing, debating about whether or not the software does what we want it to do, does it well, is easy to use, and looks pretty, are much more valid arguments. I mean, if KeePass is open-source and LastPass is not, but the KeePass desktop UI looks like a throwback to Windows 98, doesn't have shiny browser integration, and whose security of being stored offline is made moot when syncing it in Dropbox, then I don't see why being Free and Open Source Software makes KeePass any better, tbh.

 

If the devs are spending money to make the software better, and they close off access to that code to protect their investment, then so be it if it makes for a better product.

Edited December 26, 2018 by chyron8472

[anthonylavado 6]

Hi. I’m someone working on that open source project.

 

Not here to debate or fight, just a few things I wanted to note:

 

- The infamous “unlocked” patch was made to primarily remove the nag screen asking people to upgrade to premium. This was very buggy when it was first introduced, and had a tendency to pop up when you would start playing any video, even if you had previously closed it.

 

Most plugins or other features that required Premium still required a valid subscription/license, and Emby “phones home” to verify that.

 

- Everyone is free to do what they want to do, including Emby continuing to develop their software the way they want to. No one is fighting this. We are also free to use the code that was previously licensed as GPL, as that is a legal right granted by that license. They have confirmed this, and have no issues with us continuing to do so, as long as we follow the “letter of the law”, and we intend to.

 

- If the open source fork fails, then that’s that. No harm, no foul. The world keeps spinning. We don’t know if it will fail unless we try, and that’s what we’re doing. Lots of software has started as a hobby, or as a fork of other software.

 

We’re not under any delusion - we know it’s hard work to maintain software. We’ll keep trying as long as we can. If people choose to help along the way (as several have), then that’s good too. People are free to keep using whatever software they want to.

 

In the end, isn’t more competition better? If it makes Emby work harder, and they improve as a result, then everyone wins - users, and developers.

[legallink 187]

Hi. I’m someone working on that open source project.

Not here to debate or fight, just a few things I wanted to note:

- The infamous “unlocked” patch was made to primarily remove the nag screen asking people to upgrade to premium. This was very buggy when it was first introduced, and had a tendency to pop up when you would start playing any video, even if you had previously closed it.

Most plugins or other features that required Premium still required a valid subscription/license, and Emby “phones home” to verify that.

- Everyone is free to do what they want to do, including Emby continuing to develop their software the way they want to. No one is fighting this. We are also free to use the code that was previously licensed as GPL, as that is a legal right granted by that license. They have confirmed this, and have no issues with us continuing to do so, as long as we follow the “letter of the law”, and we intend to.

- If the open source fork fails, then that’s that. No harm, no foul. The world keeps spinning. We don’t know if it will fail unless we try, and that’s what we’re doing. Lots of software has started as a hobby, or as a fork of other software.

We’re not under any delusion - we know it’s hard work to maintain software. We’ll keep trying as long as we can. If people choose to help along the way (as several have), then that’s good too. People are free to keep using whatever software they want to.

In the end, isn’t more competition better? If it makes Emby work harder, and they improve as a result, then everyone wins - users, and developers.

I have a similar opinion. Just seems that a lot of the jellyfin followers spew a lot of vitriol to the emby side of the fence. Competition is always a good thing. Kudos!

[chef 3745]

So you are saying it was an ethical hack? You where attempting to fix a bug with the premium advertisement? I dunno, removing the premium ad altogether just because you could doesn't show support to the team. In my opinion, anyway.

 

You could have very easily made a pull request with fixed conditions that recitfied the problem with it poping up during video play back.

 

But, that is just my opinion.

 

I suppose you and your team are the onions then...

[anthonylavado 6]

I have a similar opinion. Just seems that a lot of the jellyfin followers spew a lot of vitriol to the emby side of the fence. Competition is always a good thing. Kudos!

 

If that’s the case, I apologize on their behalf. There are some people who are very passionate about open source software! There’s a reason that movement is as strong as it is.

 

I know on the main team, we can definitely get frustrated sometimes, as anyone does when they “inherit” a project. Everyone likes to do the same things in different ways. But we definitely don’t encourage any attacks or similar, we prefer to spend that energy on progress - and would hope that others do so too.

 

We haven’t had much communication with the Emby team, but we’ve definitely tried to be open and respectful there, so I hope it works its way through.

[anthonylavado 6]

So you are saying it was an ethical hack? You where attempting to fix a bug with the premium advertisement? I dunno, removing the premium ad altogether just because you could doesn't show support to the team. In my opinion, anyway.

 

You could have very easily made a pull request with fixed conditions that recitfied the problem with it poping up during video play back.

 

But, that is just my opinion.

 

I suppose you and your team are the onions then...

 

 

I wasn't "there" when the patch came out. In fact, I hadn't actually tried Emby until very recently! My own media setup is to have a network share paired with Infuse for tvOS and iOS, but that's another story.

 

What I can go by is the code that is part of the patch, talking to the person who wrote it, and talking to my other friend who used it. I can imagine why they didn't submit it - since around 2015, there has been a Contributor License Agreement (CLA) that, among other protections, does give the Emby team permission to relicense any contributions provided to the source code. I know my friend would have strong objections to that, and so he would have declined to contribute in that respect. And again, while I can't speak for the patch developer directly, I believe he would have had the same thought.

 

If my reading is correct, I believe the "premiere" screen was fixed in later releases, so then the patch moved more towards just preventing a connection back to Emby's servers, for more of a privacy reason than anything else. That's in the past though.

 

Regarding Onions: I'm afraid I don't understand. I'm a native English and Spanish speaker, but I'm not familiar with the expression. Can you please elaborate?

[anthonylavado 6]

Oh I see what you are referring to in this post:             #30            

 

From the blog post regarding 3.6, the move to closed source is at least partially explained by Emby saying that they have some modules now that require this in the code: https://emby.media/exciting-additions-coming-soon-in-emby-server-36.html

 

Regarding the GPL issues and others posted on the GitHub repo though, parts of the code started to be closed over a year ago, before this reasoning was provided. It was this sudden change that seemed to alarm a few people that were following the project. Their primary concern was the move of pieces to be closed, while the main codebase itself was still listed as having a GPL license on GitHub. I don't with to get into it further (again, it's in the past, it's been discussed very much), but I have been told that was part of the motivation.

[anthonylavado 6]

I wrote the previous post quickly and should be clear - the move to Emby being closed source started _before_ the patch came about, so it is certainly not a response to recent activity. The issue just became more prominent because of the full impending closure with 3.6, which only really became apparent in the past few weeks.

[Perplexed 25]

Just seems that a lot of the jellyfin followers spew a lot of vitriol to the emby side of the fence.

 

Not just their followers... their admin seems the one with the foulest mouth and strongest opinions: https://www.reddit.com/r/jellyfin/comments/a9ftd1/jellyfin_statement_on_recent_code_changes/

 

Can't say that looking at that Reddit is improving my opinion of the project, nor its main developers... nothing personally against the gentleman trying to explain things in this thread as I'm sure at least his intentions are pure.

[chef 3745]

Edited December 27, 2018 by chef

[anthonylavado 6]

Not just their followers... their admin seems the one with the foulest mouth and strongest opinions: https://www.reddit.com/r/jellyfin/comments/a9ftd1/jellyfin_statement_on_recent_code_changes/

 

Can't say that looking at that Reddit is improving my opinion of the project, nor its main developers... nothing personally against the gentleman trying to explain things in this thread as I'm sure at least his intentions are pure.

I wrote the statement that is that post on Reddit. I looked again quickly at the comments made on the post by anyone tagged as being from the team. There are two user flairs that denote this: Jellyfin Contributor, such as myself, someone who has collaborator access on the repository. The other is Jellyfin Admin, which denotes the people that have organizational/Admin privileges for the project on GitHub.

 

I think I know which comment you may be referring to, as there aren’t many that have “foul” words. If so, then yes, one of the Admins does have very strong opinions regarding this effort, and arguably because he is putting a lot of work into it. I can’t speak for his choice of words and what he says, as that is up to him. Most people would be upset at getting an e-mail with these requests on Christmas Eve (we did) and the Emby team did mention as much in the message. Regardless, we worked through it very quickly. I apologize if their comments are not to your liking, but there isn’t much I can do.

 

I do thank you though, as you have recognized, that I am deliberately putting a lot of care into these posts and messages. I’m just trying to inform and help answer concerns about this topic, since it is titled “Is an Open-Source Core Really That Big a Deal?”. The short answer is, yes, it is to the people who do care about it.

[anthonylavado 6]

One bad onion spoils the soup. It wasnt a slur regarding you personally, just the decisions made.

Thank you for clarifying! I’m sorry I missed the post previously that explained it. As a fellow Canadian, I was quite confused until I saw it :-)

[anthonylavado 6]

@@chef - Whoa, I just saw that you added a lot more to your post. I’m just breaking for dinner now, but I will reply when I get a chance. Thank you for continuing the discussion respectfully.

 

As a note - I do realize that we are now starting to veer away from the main question in the thread title. I’m happy to continue here, or make a new thread. Whatever people feel is more appropriate.

 

(Edit for typos)

Edited December 27, 2018 by anthonylavado

[Perplexed 25]

I do thank you though, as you have recognized, that I am deliberately putting a lot of care into these posts and messages. I’m just trying to inform and help answer concerns about this topic, since it is titled “Is an Open-Source Core Really That Big a Deal?”. The short answer is, yes, it is to the people who do care about it.

 

No worries, I would never shoot the messenger

 

Obviously I care about open source, in fact my own contribution to Plex and Emby is fully open source. Problem is, there are basically only two paths your project can take.

 

One, Jellyfin is just a little hobby on the side, no strings attached and no income expected. In that case it will probably never be any real alternative to Plex or Emby.

Two, Jellyfin is meant to become a serious enterprise, on par with Plex and Emby. In that case, you will have to think about revenue. And trust me when I say that relying on donations won't allow you to quit your day job... not even for a day.

 

It's not clear from the project which you guys intend to be - but of course it's early days. Anyway, good luck with the project and thanks for stopping by!

[anthonylavado 6]

I think these last two posts close this out nicely. I'll stop for now. If anyone would like to discuss further, please PM me, create a new post and tag me, or reach out on another online method - I'm on Twitter and Reddit.

 

Thanks!

[BAlGaInTl 279]

Users on both sides are going to say dumb shit, that is the nature of passionate users that are loyal to a project or product, they will defend and attach.

 

I truly think the Jellyfin project is trying to adhere to the intent of the original open source Emby project license. They have been as open as they can on what they are intending to do and with what they have done to date. They have shown they are willing to work with Emby to rectify any overlap with licensing issues and move forward with a full OS project.

 

I don't see anything nefarious in anything I have read or observed in the forking of the Emby project to Jellyfin...yet.

 

It is obvious the Jellyfin team are responding with passion in their posts and commits, if they did not have passion then they would not be doing this, passion is a powerful motivator and can allow teams to build some amazing things. It will be interesting to see if the Jellyfin project can maintain the momentum and passion.

I feel the same way.

 

I'm not going to abandon Emby for their changes. I'll certainly watch the progression of Jellyfin with interest. Once they create their own clients, I'll probably take it for a spin.

[tdiguy 96]

I know next to nothing about code so probably to many this will mean my opinion matters little on this subject and i am fine with that. In my opinion Emby can do what they wish with their product. Which is just what it is. They decide to go closed source that is just fine. If they use things that are open source and the license says that it has to be open for inspection i assume the emby team will be in compliance with that. If people wish a refund and it is a reasonable timeframe i would bet that the emby team will honor that. Honestly from what i have read over in the premier support forum they seem very generous ( imho ) with such matters. I am very happy with it and I hope they take whatever path best allows them to continue developing emby for the plethora of platforms that it can run on. Closed source or open they put a lot of work into this project and there are way to completely legally use it totally free, there is a lot to be said right there i think. Its not a 1 week trial or the like its just some features they require payment for and its not an exorbitant amount of money especially considering not only what it does but how much the competition is. Its right in line with plex cost wise and more affordable than hdhr services.

[speechles 1917]

There is a difference. Take for example the "copyleft" which in and of itself is true open-source. All it allows is keeping code open, any changes must be open, anything. To commercialize any aspect of that code goes against a moral/ethical wording next to a year. It is a play on copyright meaning that it is never meant for profit. Must be kept free to keep the community who makes use of it available to maintain and use it.

 

All the code on my repository is "copyleft". http://github.com/speechles . Most of the code users want is in the /eggdrop branch. This code must be kept open and free to that community. I may no longer maintain any of these but the "bones" these are built on can be useful to someone new to eggdrop and learning tcl. I do not want these commercialized or made for profit in any way. So in that effort I am a zealot of "copyleft" when it comes to small communities run on IRC. I spent many years keeping freedom free while getting 0 compensation. 

 

The issue is maintenance of the code and when required requires an investment of your time. With code that doesnt need maintenance it is easy to open-source it and just walk away. Your investment is in its creation. There is zero maintenance. You drop the code off to the open source community and hope they spearhead fixes. This usually doesn't happen as people need to use the code, know the code exists, to offer fixes for it. To spam in peoples faces your codes existence is sort of self defeating. You look like a troll or just a bad actor. Someone who could be equated to a "bad onion" in the soup.

 

So if you need to maintain your code you need to understand how to compensate yourself. Do you add a "donate" link in your signature on forums? Do you ask people to donate in the thread of a forum your links exist on? How do you feel valued in the community? This is where the open-source has value. It allows others to learn how something is accomplished, how the syntax is built if they are from another programming language, and how things are generally done. Hopefully the example code isnt sloppy they learn from or they learn bad habits. It all comes down to how do you wish to be valued?

 

To alleviate these fears. You need to tread lightly. With Emby I know there are certain expenses that are incurred on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis. What once was a fun hobby has become a full time job. In fact so much it is now a company that outsources help. Most of these users who are now helping were prior users who were consistently offering commits to Emby. You get the same as you always had open or closed source. The same users commiting the same things are still doing this in all the apps.

 

There comes a time when you need to assign value to what you consider your investment in yourself. Your time is valuable. Do you give it away/squander it? Most people work for a living. If you spend all your time working for free on your hobby project that derives zero income you are going to be living on pocket change. Donations while nice to get and sometimes you get big donors trust me. Donations are nice but are few are far between. There are alot eating a free lunch because of your constant maintenance and charging for that lunch doesn't seem out of line. Changing the code base to obscure the parts of the code that cost money also doesn't. This is why the Roku app is closed source. It is very valuable. It cannot be given away. There are other parts of the core that also cost alot of money.

 

I had the same problem on eggdrop sharing things that required exposing my tokens/keys/etc.. I couldn't ever do half the projects people wanted because I could never figure a way to not expose the API keys that I paid for and not have people abuse them and overuse the API calls. So most of those old scripts required users setting up their own API keys and dealing with daily limits. Not my problem. Emby is the same way.

 

I agree people talk bullshit on both sides and throwing stones. For me it appears more about stealing than open source. People want to demonetize Emby is what I see. But hey everybody gets an opinion, even me. That's  my opinion and I can own it. I seriously hope them the best in their endeavors but cannot see how that would work. Free is a good idea in concept.

Edited December 27, 2018 by speechles

[metsuke 27]

I am always in favor of open source technologies, and Emby will be the first closed-source application on my server.  Though I would prefer Emby to stay open-source, it is sometimes understandable for business or legal reasons that some code must be closed.  I do business with many companies that completely open-source their products and successfully offer support as their source of revenue, so I am hopeful that Emby might be able to rely on licensing and perhaps commercial support for revenue someday.  I do have a lifetime license with Emby and I'm still glad that I purchased it.

 

With that said, I will iterate over a couple of benefits of open-source software that I appreciate.

 

1. Code can be audited.  I don't trust anyone's code.  From my perspective there has always been, and probably always will be, a consistent stream of companies and individuals whose code is written to facilitate unethical, or at least shady operations for dubious purposes.  I've been burned more than once by some closed-source applications reaching out to 3rd party servers in different countries for unknown reasons.  When I see behavior that I do not expect, or that I require piece of mind about in open source software, I can (and regularly do) browse the code and see exactly what is happening.
2. Code can be edited.  Applications are typically not one-size-fits-all, and they are not written to be.  That's fine, but open-source projects allow users to change behavior that does not suit his or her needs.  In many personal and professional projects, I've changed open-source projects to run differently than they were originally intended.  Code that could be applied to everyone was contributed to the project.

What I care about more than whether or not code is open-source is privacy.  It just so happens that using open-source projects for my personal use enhances my privacy for the two aforementioned reasons.  If an application is going to hinder my privacy, I can detect this behavior, patch it, or use something else entirely as long as I, or anyone else who cares about privacy, can see the code.  My bet is that most people who care about privacy must also care about using open-source software.  If others have a different perspective on the privacy aspect then I'd be happy to hear about it.

[chef 3745]