Plex and Tidal

[Chyron 221]

Plex's most recent update was to integrate support for the TIDAL music streaming service. So Plex can offer for TIDAL to recommend music to sell to you based what you have or listen to.

https://www.plex.tv/tidal/

 

Thoughts? I just can't even. It's all just comical to me at this point how deaf Plex is to its userbase.

Edited November 30, 2018 by chyron8472

[Jdiesel 1114]

I don't really understand the desire to integrate other services into existing media players. I see requests all the time whether it be Emby, Plex, Kodi, or others. It is highly likely that a native app for that service already existing on the device you are running your media client on and it is almost certain that the native app does a much better job at presenting their content. Is it really so difficult switching apps to use different services? 

[speechles 1917]

https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=109377407

 

They have to integrate other services to build equity and show a positive cash flow. I bet somebody is calling them on loans and asking for them to keep current.

Almost as if the guy at the top wonders why his stock is worth less today than yesterday.

 

<CEO> Hmm.. Why is my portfolio worth less today than yesterday?! Lets okay that Tidal deal. That will give us a positive quarter and up my share value 3%.

<CFO> Got the wheels in motion almost done.

<CTO> Wait what?

<CEO> No questions. Just follow orders.

[Chyron 221]

I can understand a business wanting to stay afloat. I don't have a clue what Emby's business model is, but if the Emby devs said "umm... yeah.  Premiere key sales aren't profitable enough to keep running this project as a source of income", then I would be all over them having a crowd funding campaign to keep things going. All. Over. It.

 

Changing the software from personal-server-centric to aggregating cloud steaming services through a buggy, comparatively mediocre UX, leaves people who bought the software for the former purpose in the dust. I won't be sorry when their model collapses because they don't do anything particularly well anymore, especially when it comes to their fascination with the market rather than listening to the loyal userbase.

Edited November 30, 2018 by chyron8472

[speechles 1917]

The choice of Tidal as a partner is comical in a way. Tidal is a failed business that is desperately trying to stay afloat. The two are sort of already in the same boat, may as well share a userbase that overlaps. In that way they can stay safe for a few months and appear to be catering to their audience. But we know the real reason.. lol. They are desperate to pay back their loans on time, and their huge staff and salaries are hurting them. I bet they even have a salary for their "plex dog" since they use it so often it must be an employee. Give it a salary too. Now is when those decisions start to come full circle. Users get screwed out of money and the guys at the top get rich. Their salaried staff in between just gets.. a salary. Don't hate the player, hate the game.. Thats all this is. A game of chess and they are making odd moves.

[Carlo 4330]

Personally I HATE lifetime licenses for Plex or Emby but have one of each.

 

I'd personally much prefer they both do away with the lifetime moving forward and just offer reasonable priced monthly/yearly subscriptions.  This way there is a CONSTANT ongoing stream of $ that covers development and ongoing costs (even if you never gain an additional customer).

 

The problem with lifetime subs is that once you have that person's money they don't "matter" anymore.  There is nothing keeping you from changing things or pissing off these customers in order to try and attract some new base & $. Case in point what Plex has done the last two years with many things including their UI.

 

When EVERY customer you get adds to your revenue and when EVERY customer you loose takes away from your revenue it gives you better perspective of what your customers actually approve/want from you as they vote with $ every month.  Stray off the path too much from what your customers want/expect and your income gets reduced which gives you a new perspective on things.

 

Lifetime subs have a way of making older customers less important then new customers because they add no new revenue while making changes for new users more important since they are the new revenue source.  While Emby hasn't fallen into this as such yet it could be only a matter of time, but Plex was there 2 or 3 years ago and it really shows by what they have been releasing these last couple of years. Hence why many people have been migrating from Plex to Emby the last year.

 

Personally I'd love to see yearly at say $34.95 and monthly at $8.95 with no more yearly plans unless it's something like $295 or so with maybe an additional 10 to 15 licenses thrown in.  That's a fair amount and worth it to both the company and customer with good ongoing dev.

 

I always fear models that don't account for ongoing revenue from existing customers.  Case in point is something like Gracenote costs (EPG) or some company like Dolby throwing down the hammer on licensing (happened to Plex 2 years back).

 

But back closer to the topic, Plex has been rolling out lots of things the users haven't asked for.  VR, Web Shows, Podcasts (not bad), News, Tidal as well as stand alone clients like PlexAmp for music (10 years too late).  They have cut many services that were offered like advanced music, cloud sync, cloud server, plugins. They have rolled out a new UI that not many users embrace, etc, etc, etc.  Plex has completely lost base with the users in their forums (unlike Emby).  The majority of the users in the forum are either free or lifetime members so they just aren't an important voice anymore for ongoing revenue.

 

I saw this first hand as a Plex Ninja and despised it.  Also one of the main reasons why I'm no longer a ninja or a Plex advocate anymore.

[Luke 37057]

I agree fully on your statements about lifetime licenses. We'd rather not have them either. The problem is we're in a competitive market, and sometimes you have to match competitor pricing even when you'd rather not. If we did not have lifetime pricing then we'd have to deal with complaints such as "i hate subscriptions", "I won't switch to Emby until there's a lifetime option", "competition has it", etc.

[Perplexed 25]

As a customer I love lifetime subscriptions. Sure I have been bitten, but most investments in lifetime licences have paid off in a huge way. Plex is one of them (got many good years out of them), DVDfab, and I know Emby will be one of them as well.

It makes me loyal, involved and grateful.

 

Contrast that with companies such as LogMeIn or Evernote with their sudden price hikes and no grandfathering of loyal customers and I won't have a single positive thing to say.

 

So don't feel too bad about it... I know I have "converted" several people to Emby so even though you got my money already, I'm sure that is not the last of it

Edited December 9, 2018 by Perplexed

[Carlo 4330]

I agree fully on your statements about lifetime licenses. We'd rather not have them either. The problem is we're in a competitive market, and sometimes you have to match competitor pricing even when you'd rather not. If we did not have lifetime pricing then we'd have to deal with complaints such as "i hate subscriptions", "I won't switch to Emby until there's a lifetime option", "competition has it", etc.

 

Yes I realize this from a competitor standpoint and having to "match" the competition on pricing.  However, I'd suggest after another release or two you reevaluate your position moving forward.  Emby is no longer the outsider trying to make a dent in things.  It's nearly every bit as good on it's weak features and on it's good features is often times much better.  Things generally keep improving really well in Emby land and this can't be seen in the orange world, not on the core features.

 

The gap Plex had narrowed, disappeared and now in many ways Emby is creating the gap in features and is a head of Plex which is remarkable considering the size of the two teams.  Plex is a "marketing machine" and does this better than anything else these days.  But that can only take you so far. Sooner or later the actual product is used and this is where the hype goes "poof" and metal meets the street.

 

Don't sell yourself or the product short and think you have to price things the same.  Price your product for what it's worth and find the sweet spot for consumers to "hook" them.

 

$5 per month is reasonable for month to month.

$55 per year seems too high as it only saves $5 over monthly and is roughly only 1/2 the lifetime (too cheap) price

$119 lifetime is way to cheap for what you get.

 

$39.95 for a yearly (including EPG worth $25) license seems like a better deal and would be easier to pull the trigger by many. It's less than $40 a year and not a considerable amount more then they would need to pay for just a DVR service or just EPG from a 3rd party.

 

$225 ish is much more inline with the real value of Emby for a license and would be roughly 5.5 years of yearly license costs.

 

There are people who will purchase the lifetime just to have it and not worry about payments again, but the majority of new users would see the best value in the yearly license at $39.95 and this is priced low enough to swallow for customers as well as being high enough to generate considerable ongoing revenue for the team as well.  It's just a matter of finding the proper sweet spot (similar to above) and stop worrying so much about "matching" the competition on $. Price Emby for what it's worth (and ongoing revenue potential), not what the competition is worth (or think they're worth).

 

HOWEVER, from a perception standpoint, Emby has a problem with the license counts included with a license which scares many people right off the bat but rarely ever hold true once operational.  That/this is something that should be addressed as it hold back some people from choosing Emby. The 15 device limit is really low compared to the 75ish you get with Plex. If this "limit" were 25 and users could control the devices associated with the license this would essentially "fix" this perception problem.  This is actually a bigger problem then I think Emby acknowledges.  This has come up numerous times when I help people migrate and we've talked about it a couple of times in the forum.  "Perception" is often times reality so if something like this stops people dead in the water from doing a migration/setup then it's an issue that should be looked at again.

 

But the main point I want to make is that with every passing release Emby is getting better and with every new release Plex seems to be moving beyond the "core" features people want/need to manage their local media. So do a re-evaluation of this every couple of releases to see if the current revenue model is in need of change yet. I'd especially do this right after the major DVR release that is hopefully in the works.

[speechles 1917]

@@cayars

 

Considering Emby as a service the price is driven by perceived value. The interest you gain by holding onto your investment. The more interest you have in something the better the return on investment. The better a users ROI the more likely they will stay happy. Their happiness drives future sales. What price do you put on happiness?

 

So think of users in the same way. If you price yourself above the competition you drive customers to either, figure you are a premium brand, or perhaps something braggart about the purchase makes it worth it they get some benefit socially bragging to others. This is where people have the misconception that the competition is a premium brand and Emby is in some or any way an inferior knock off. There is no premium brand among these services. A service is either worth the value implied and perceived or it isn't. The price point is merely a gauge on how valuable the property/service is. You can't change perception without increasing user happiness. Emby is miles above the competition in this regard.

 

Not to mention the lack of advertising. Emby pretty much has 0 advertising budget. While the competition spends unknown dollars just to present themselves to users to draw awareness. They constantly spend to keep themselves relevant while lacking the core heart that makes people happy. Like the Tin Man from Wizard of Oz. Oh.. if only they had a heart. They fail to make that emotional connection and in 2018 without it you are doomed. Humans being humans helping other humans. Not robotic replies, sheepish moderators who close threads with reckless abandon, or other bad traits. Emby is your friend. At least you should consider it that way. What price is that friendship worth to you? Friends stick together.. etc..etc..

Edited December 9, 2018 by speechles

[One2Go 98]

In my setup there are a few programs and services that I want to use until either I myself or the Home Theater has died

 

Lifetime licenses make sense for that purpose and I have one for AnyDVD, Emby and Plex as well as purchased playback programs. I will use these until either no more place to watch any content exists or no one there anymore to watch content.

 

On a side note Lifetime of what, product, company or something else. I have a few lifetime memberships and licenses of products and services that no longer exist.

 

In one of the Plex forums a user made the statement that the Emby lifetime license is only good for the present major release and has to be renewed at the next major release and he sited that as an advantage of using Plex.

[Carlo 4330]

@@speechles, what if you don't consider Emby "as a service" but as a platform where you license the software to use?  This isn't a "service" as the current way of viewing services.  Emby isn't hosting services but using old style licensed software, not that any of this matters from a pricing standpoint.

 

You and I basically agree.  My message was geared toward Luke who made the comment about the competition and the need to offer the same types of licenses as the competiton and I was disagreeing just as you are.  Or just saying to re-evaluate your worth compared to them and not to follow their policies.

 

Just as you pointed out users will find the perceived value of the platform.  If one works and one doesn't OR one continues to improve in functions you want/need and one seems to move in areas that you aren't that interested in etc...

 

I don't agree or disagree with pricing yourself above the competition.  You have to find the sweet spot of where users will fork out money and where they won't and crunch the numbers.  IE is it better to get 3 customers at $250 (lifetime) each or 6 customers at $40 yearly (year after year if you keep them)?  You need to calculate the burn rate and ongoing cost of each customer once aquired.  For example lifetime customers will COST Emby going forward since they have to pay a fee to Gracenote in some fashion for it's use.  No idea how these fees are structured but they all fit into an equasion that helps to calculate the ROI of each customer at different price points and profit margins.

 

The "price point" isn't mearly a guage of how valuable the service is but is the loss or profit obtained over time of said customer.  That's why it can be "counter intuitive" to price lower to grab more paying users at a price that is easy to justify.  That way they continue to pay the fee each year without feeling like they got took by not having a lifetime fee.  As you pointed out if the user feels like they get their money's worth and are happy the investment each year is a no brainer as they get the value from it.  That's the idea of pricing to maximize profit and make customers happy (both win).

 

I agree with you on "premium brand".  Plex is more known as they were around longer using the same name so some equate that to being the original (not that it makes them better). Regardless of any "premium brand" type though, all one has to do is read both forums and you see many unhappy people in Plex land and overall happyness in Emby land so that I think speaks for itself on how people are feeling about each brand and what may be perceived as premium in 6 months and 12 months from now (trending).

 

My point was simply to not copy what they price at but determine your own value and adjust fees for profit and happy customers which aren't mutually exclusive (aside from low cost lifetime licenses which aren't that smart to do).

 

Carlo

[ebr 14910]

In one of the Plex forums a user made the statement that the Emby lifetime license is only good for the present major release and has to be renewed at the next major release and he sited that as an advantage of using Plex.

 

That is incorrect.

[Luke 37057]

@@One2Go would you mind correcting that person?

[One2Go 98]

I know that it was incorrect and I will locate the 6 days old post and correct it.

[Luke 37057]

Thank you !

[One2Go 98]

Someone already corrected him with a quote from the Emby TOS and he retracted his false statement. Here is a link to the discussion.

 

https://forums.plex.tv/t/return-of-plex-cloud/239409/87

[Luke 37057]

Thanks !

[adamstewiegreen 147]

no doubt that plex is getting a slim piece of each pie (tidal subs) and tidal is hoping that plex will bring in a lot of pies.  I don't think many people will be tempted: tidal is significantly more expensive and has a smaller library than their competition.  Plus if I'm using (insert major competitor here) I don't need access to my music library - it's all redundant.

 

Someone already corrected him with a quote from the Emby TOS and he retracted his false statement. Here is a link to the discussion.

 

https://forums.plex.tv/t/return-of-plex-cloud/239409/87

Ha! That was me.

 

I appreciate the lifetime license, but I am more than a little surprised Emby and Plex still has it.  I think getting rid of it may actually be advantageous, especially if the only reason for keeping it is the competition.  You have a very solid product that's worth every penny of the monthly/yearly sub, plus the updates are consistent, the progress behind the scenes is fairly transparent in the forums and the tech support (esp for chumps like me) is great.  Anyone who uses Emby for a month will see that very quickly.

 

I hope you guys are getting a ton of new subs with all this plex chaos, you deserve it.

[Coxeroni 26]

Yes it was me making that false statement but please be so "honest" to also say, that this is how it used to be with emby or at least you kept the option open to define lifetime in a different way if you decided to do so:

 

https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/26277-lifetime-support-covers-everything-right/?p=255688

 

Here somebody quoted from the terms of use of the time then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/emby/comments/50rfjn/a_lifetime_is_two_years/

Edited December 14, 2018 by Coxeroni

[hexluther 2]

...but if the Emby devs said "umm... yeah.  Premiere key sales aren't profitable enough to keep running this project as a source of income", then I would be all over them having a crowd funding campaign to keep things going. All. Over. It...

 

Here, here!  I loved the simplicity of Plex's original Roku UI, Rarflix improved upon that, but yeah..   Short and sweet, I'm sure once I become entirely vested in Emby as I was Plex (well still am as I have much to migrate), I'd be down for crowd funding as well.

 

But... then I got further down the thread just now and read "competition."  Why?  Why does there need to be a perceived "competition" ?  Plex had a great product, that just worked.  Now they're a bit too commercialized for my liking.  Are the days of developers developing for a desire/need simply to have their works out there, being used, while paying bills (not luxurious ones) simply not a thing anymore?

 

1. Server <-> Client Setup

2. Libraries (categorical, pulled meta and cover art)

3. LiveTV and DVR (shared to all approved users, not just "home" users)

4. Client UI's that are simple, elegant and simply work (eg. Google, it's not <insert any deprecated search engine site here> and look at them now)

 

Plex had those things, well except for #3 (natively, but I could use HDHRViewer to make it happen, keyword -could- as they've ripped out plugins).  I admit to becoming worried that while Emby may satisfy my needs now, all this talk of competition concerns me (but take with a grain of salt, I know I am, that I am still very very new to Emby, thus may be looking for reassurance, NOT complaining).

 

 

 

[Sammy 735]

I have a lifetime AND occassionally sign up for a monthly to help out. Nothing stops anyone else from doing this.

 

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[Luke 37057]

Thank you for your support !

[Perplexed 25]

Yes it was me making that false statement but please be so "honest" to also say, that this is how it used to be with emby or at least you kept the option open to define lifetime in a different way if you decided to do so:

 

https://emby.media/community/index.php?/topic/26277-lifetime-support-covers-everything-right/?p=255688

 

Here somebody quoted from the terms of use of the time then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/emby/comments/50rfjn/a_lifetime_is_two_years/

 

Oh I'm with you all the way Coxeroni - I too held off buying an Emby lifetime and at the time it was only $60. Also at the time Emby was quite the hobby product... back then seemed to fling a whole pile of mud against the wall and then waited to see which blob would stick. Plex back then was so much better I wouldn't even look at Emby twice... though about once a year I'd install it, shudder, and run back to Plex.

 

How times have changed!

 

When Plex introduced the new Android app, the same type of chaos happened as now with Roku, except on a smaller scale. The response by the staff was the same - first we were ignored, then received a barrage of "y'all can't handle change, you are just yelling, all I hear is 'you suck' when you open your mouth" messages from people with an "employee" badge, then finally some soothing messages from elan. In the end though nothing changed, I'm still looking at that unworkable, ugly mess of an app (that is, the few times I still look at it).

 

In the meantime, Emby miraculously blossomed out to be a very stable, pretty, useful platform and, dare I say it, surpassed Plex on almost every level. I mean EVERY level: playback is faster, smoother and easier. The UI is lovely. The devs listen, respond and explain. When a request isn't feasible, they say so. Otherwise, it just gets done. Bugs (perceived or otherwise) are adequately investigated and sorted within days, if not minutes.

 

Shortly after Emby changed their lifetime to really mean "lifetime" I bought it, gladly, for twice the price I ever paid for Plex (due to our dollar having dropped so much). It made our marital life a lot easier, I no longer have to contend with a spouse declaring he'd rather go back to DVDs than use the mess Plex has become

 

In short: life is good again, courtesy of Emby!