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Tone Mapping for HDR


muzicman0
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muzicman0

I actually messed up when I was testing it and played the 1080p version first (and thought it was MUCH better), then realized it wasn't the UHD version, so here is the same screenshot with 1080p on both browser and VLC.  Browser is still being transcoded (due to bit rate).

 

Screenshot 2021-10-14 122726.png

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Painkiller8818

on your screenshot i saw you are allowing tone mapping with hardware and software transcoding. I am not sure if this is what you really want, as software is not a good solution for that.

Maybe @ebr can confirm this, as i think you should use hardware only.

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muzicman0

I've tried it both ways. There really shouldn't be much ability for software to kick in anyways, I only have a few users, and no more than 2 to maybe 3 streams at a time, and mostly it will be direct play. 

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54 minutes ago, muzicman0 said:

I actually messed up when I was testing it and played the 1080p version first (and thought it was MUCH better), then realized it wasn't the UHD version, so here is the same screenshot with 1080p on both browser and VLC.  Browser is still being transcoded (due to bit rate).

 

Screenshot 2021-10-14 122726.png

What exactly are we looking at here?  Is this VLC vs web playing 1080p SDR?  If so that looks fine but forget about VLC for now.

Show us side by side what you get for web playback at 1080-8Mb for both SDR and HDR side by side for the same scene.

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muzicman0

the screenshot in question is the same as all the rest, webapp on the left (only running 1080p version), VLC on the right.  This was in response to EBR asking to see the web app playback.  

I will get webapp HDR vs non HDR ASAP.

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Thanks.

Download and install the Diagnostic Plugin from the Emby Catalog and restart your server (general section).  You will now have a few new menu options. :)

Click on the Advanced Transcoding menu.
Click the Tone Mapping tab up top.

You will see Tone Mapping Algorithm drop down list box.
You are likely running Hable but I'd like you to try Reinhard and also Mobius.

Can you post similar pics as above with all 4?
1080p
Hable
Reinhard
Mobius

 

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rbjtech

The default (Hable) is too dark - it always has been but @softworkz has chosen it as the default but imho Mobius is the best Tonemap algorithm out there for 'like for like' brightness vs an SDR master.  Reinhard is 'in-between'.

Currently you cannot 'save' these preferences in the Diag plugin - which is a shame, as if I had the choice - I would set mine to Mobius.

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Q-Droid
1 hour ago, rbjtech said:

The default (Hable) is too dark - it always has been but @softworkz has chosen it as the default but imho Mobius is the best Tonemap algorithm out there for 'like for like' brightness vs an SDR master.  Reinhard is 'in-between'.

Currently you cannot 'save' these preferences in the Diag plugin - which is a shame, as if I had the choice - I would set mine to Mobius.

The Tonemap algorithm setting does save. What doesn't survive restarts are the fine-tuning values to adjust the tone mapping and other overrides.

I agree re: Mobius offering better results. And based on the descriptions for the algorithms it may also do a better job with color accuracy across a wider range of sources.

reinhard
Preserve overall image brightness with a simple curve, using nonlinear contrast, which results in flattening details and degrading color accuracy.

hable
Preserve both dark and bright details better than reinhard, at the cost of slightly darkening everything. Use it when detail preservation is more important than color and brightness accuracy.

mobius
Smoothly map out-of-range values, while retaining contrast and colors for in-range material as much as possible. Use it when color accuracy is more important than detail preservation.
 

 

 

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muzicman0
7 hours ago, cayars said:

Thanks.

Download and install the Diagnostic Plugin from the Emby Catalog and restart your server (general section).  You will now have a few new menu options. :)

Click on the Advanced Transcoding menu.
Click the Tone Mapping tab up top.

You will see Tone Mapping Algorithm drop down list box.
You are likely running Hable but I'd like you to try Reinhard and also Mobius.

Can you post similar pics as above with all 4?
1080p
Hable
Reinhard
Mobius

 

This is great information, thanks!  Requested screenshot attached.

 

all 4.png

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Right off the bat, to me both Reinhard and Mobius look better on this movie than Hable.
I know for my 4K collection as a whole I like Mobius better and is what I've selected for my system.
The sad things is what looks best for one HDR tone-mapping may not be best for another.

What I would do is test against 10+ 4K movies or a sampling of your collection and choose the one that does the best overall job.
I wouldn't get caught up in trying to frame grab for this purpose to look at frames side by side.  Instead just try and watch the movie like normal. Pick the one that gives the best overall experience without trying to get to technical about it.  If you can't decide, maybe get a spouse or friend to watch 5-10 minutes of the same played back with different algorithms.  Don't bother to explain to them what to look for or what you're doing.  Don't influence them but just have them tell you which they liked better and maybe why.

Personally I'm not removing my 1080 versions as they will almost always look better as they are professionally produced.  But I've got a few movies only on 4K so tone-mapping does come in handy for them.

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muzicman0
5 minutes ago, cayars said:

Right off the bat, to me both Reinhard and Mobius look better on this movie than Hable.
I know for my 4K collection as a whole I like Mobius better and is what I've selected for my system.
The sad things is what looks best for one HDR tone-mapping may not be best for another.

What I would do is test against 10+ 4K movies or a sampling of your collection and choose the one that does the best overall job.
I wouldn't get caught up in trying to frame grab for this purpose to look at frames side by side.  Instead just try and watch the movie like normal. Pick the one that gives the best overall experience without trying to get to technical about it.  If you can't decide, maybe get a spouse or friend to watch 5-10 minutes of the same played back with different algorithms.  Don't bother to explain to them what to look for or what you're doing.  Don't influence them but just have them tell you which they liked better and maybe why.

Personally I'm not removing my 1080 versions as they will almost always look better as they are professionally produced.  But I've got a few movies only on 4K so tone-mapping does come in handy for them.

Thanks.  Do you create a separate library for 4k, or versions?  I had it as versions, but at least in a browser, it keeps defaulting to the 1080p version.  I would prefer it to default to the UHD version, at least on my shields, but I haven't actually tested that. 

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I used to but no more.  I only share with family members and a couple close friends so I know they prefer one movie library vs many.  I've got over 25K movies, 150K TV show episodes so it's easier for them to find things with Movies, TV Shows, Sports, Concerts, Music (audio) and certain times of the year Christmas.

My son can play 4K movies no problem so he's fine from his house.  My daughter and her soon to be husband don't have a 4K TV yet so they knows to select the 1080 version. If they don't they'll get a tone-mapped version which doesn't bother me at all but typically a 1080 version is going to look better IMHO.

Same for the couple of other people I give access to.

With that said, Pre Emby Tone-Mapping I did have a separate 4K library. :)

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muzicman0

on devices like TV's, Shields, etc, and local, will it default to the 4k version, or 1080 like the web app?

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19 minutes ago, muzicman0 said:

on devices like TV's, Shields, etc, and local, will it default to the 4k version, or 1080 like the web app?

There isn't a universal answer to that. The answer is always "it depends" - on the content, settings in the app, settings in the server, etc.

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11 hours ago, rbjtech said:

The default (Hable) is too dark - it always has been but @softworkz has chosen it as the default but imho Mobius is the best Tonemap algorithm out there for 'like for like' brightness vs an SDR master.  Reinhard is 'in-between'.

You might remember the initial testing and that there weren't any conclusive reports. Some said, Hable, some Reinhard, some Mobius, others reported something like for movieA, algorithmX would be better and for movieB, algorithmY, or also preferred different algorithms depending on the playback device.

Even after it became a public feature, I haven't seen any clear majority favoring a specific algorithm, that's why the default has been kept.

11 hours ago, rbjtech said:

Currently you cannot 'save' these preferences in the Diag plugin - which is a shame, as if I had the choice - I would set mine to Mobius.

Yes, it was like that during the initial testing, where we weren't sure about it. But we have recognized that there's a need to let users adjust it (permanently).
There are also plans to move this into the main UI, which hasn't happened yet, but at least the settings are kept.

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rbjtech
13 hours ago, softworkz said:

You might remember the initial testing and that there weren't any conclusive reports. Some said, Hable, some Reinhard, some Mobius, others reported something like for movieA, algorithmX would be better and for movieB, algorithmY, or also preferred different algorithms depending on the playback device.

Even after it became a public feature, I haven't seen any clear majority favoring a specific algorithm, that's why the default has been kept.

Yes, it was like that during the initial testing, where we weren't sure about it. But we have recognized that there's a need to let users adjust it (permanently).
There are also plans to move this into the main UI, which hasn't happened yet, but at least the settings are kept.

Thanks for the feedback @softworkz

I was not actually aware the Tonemap preference got saved as during your initial testing it did not - @Q-Droid corrected me on this earlier - but I think that is a very positive step (and I've now set mine to Mobius haha).

I think you are correct - one setting does not fit all and if anything, I think this should be a 'per device' setting - as it's more likely to impact the device you are using as opposed to the media you are using.  ie a TV may need the brightness, so Mobius should be used, but on a Browser,  you are closer so need more detail - so you choose Hable.

The key thing though is the tonemapping core and associated transcode streams such subtitles are now working very well - so it's just a few tweeks here and there to get it perfect 👍

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