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Disable HDR on Emby App with Nvidia Shield


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cayars

What you're referring to is just one mode FPF (first person shooter) in Game mode concerning gamma.
Yes as I said the XPR pixel shifting is the way they upsize the image to 4K and quasi HDR can be had with the different modes and dynamic algorithms.

When 1080 is pixel shifted to 4K it also adds a white slice to the RGB giving more control of the picture and allowing more dynamic changes.

Besides just the "upsizing", BenQ also supports BenQ CinematicColor and AQCOLOR as well as other color adjusting tricks (depends on projector). Many of the different modes and adjustments can adjust the video with shades of color correction, gamma correction, color temperature, color gamut, uniformity
https://www.benq.com/en-me/knowledge-center/knowledge/cinematiccolor-for-colors-as-directors-envisioned.html
https://www.benq.com/en-me/campaign/aqcolor.html

But all of these "dynamic" adjustments are based on algorithms from settings enabled on the projector to make better use of the display past what SDR can normally do.

But in non gaming mode you can also use HDR10 & HLG HDR modes for a great picture without all the dynamic adjustment and XPR pixel shifting as you already have the resolution and color pallet. So the trick is to get a great HDR10 picture and to calibrate for this, then add these many other dynamic adjusts to aid SDR content while not adversely affecting HDR10 content.

It's basically a process you just have to run through.  You'll need to also test and play with things like using a Shield TV to upsize and feed the projector 4K.  Because the projector receives 4K it won't do XPR pixel shifting.  So you can use this to your advantage with the settings used.  This way in game mode feeding 1080 you get some additional dynamic control while using "movie mode" through the Shield not get some of these dynamic adjustments.

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cayars

It doesn't create HDR from SDR. But it can upsize the pixel resolution to 4K along with add additional support for color palette and dynamically adjust it to get pseudo like HDR that has more punch, is more vibrant, better balance, more contrast, etc using the abilities of the projector.  Not sure why you're bent out of shape on this.

Come on, you understand what it's doing to upsize the picture (more pixels to the eye) and it does use more pixels for finer detail.
https://www.projectorjunkies.com/4k-dlp-projectors-is-it-real-4k-xpr-technology-explanation/

But it's not just about displaying the same pixels 4 times as they can be manipulated such that one whole green pixel + half the blue pixel + half the light blue pixel gives us a total of 2 pixels for finer detail.  Besides the basic pixel shifting you can do image enhancements as well during this process.

To the eye and brain you see much more "information" that gives a better looking picture.

It's mathematical tricks played to enhance an image that fools the eye and brain.  In a way it's kind of like an advanced/modern form of the way old CRT style TVs displayed interlaced content by alternating fields of information. Your brain didn't process the odd lines vs the even lines but you saw both fields as one.

Is it true 4K? No
Is it true HDR? No
Can the brain be tricked into thinking it's 4K and HDR like?
Yes

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cayars

OK what ever you say.  But if you read the AVSforum you'll see many other people feel quite differently than you do about this and can see a major difference playing back in 1080 SDR mode vs using the 4K pixel shifting and enhancement modes.  Even still pics show a major difference.

If your eyes see 4 pixels because they are there vs 1 pixel then it's really hard to argue there isn't 4 times the density of pixels being projected.  There is in fact 4 times the pixel density projected which are not the same exact set of pixels.

This is like saying a 1080i file is only 540 resolution because only half the frames are shown at one time which also isn't true.

Here is an example from this projector of 1080 vs 4K pixel shifting.

pic1.thumb.jpg.edfa3cd5cae2ec4cbc6fc60bfb53cc02.jpgpic2.thumb.jpg.f3fc0efc1ff7715e123642bc9f78dd89.jpg

I doubt you'll find many people who think the second 1080 image looks better.

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Noctural

I'm sorry that I can't participate in the debat, because I don't have enough knowledge in the world of video. However, I have learned a lot from your discussions. Thanks you 🙂

Regarding my problem and after some tests with a HDMI Edid emulator/editor, I realized that I will not be able to force SDR mode on HDR video with shield and my projector. Indeed even if Shield said my screen not support HDR (after cloning a EDID without HDR support), my projector use anyway HDR mode.

However, thanks to the forum AVS, I found a setting in HDR not too bad and I will be satisfied with that.

I use the settings from this website (given by AVS forum) : https://www.lite-magazin.de/2021/06/benq-tk700sti-4k-gaming-beamer-mit-android-tv-hdr-und-kurzem-input-lag/ (use google translator !)

I tested on  some movies, it's pretty good. There is only the last season of "See" which does not really good because plenty of very dark scenes. I have the impression that this series was created to sell OLED TVs.

In conclusion, I don't found a solution to force SDR in Shield but I deal with that and found a compromise to optimise my HDR settings 🙂 

 

 

Edited by Noctural
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generiq
2 minutes ago, Noctural said:

I'm sorry that I can't participate in the debat, because I don't have enough knowledge in the world of video. However, I have learned a lot from your discussions. Thanks you 🙂

Regarding my problem and after some tests with a HDMI Edid emulator/editor, I realized that I will not be able to force SDR mode on HDR video with shield and my projector. Indeed even if Shield said my screen not support HDR (after cloning a EDID without HDR support), my projector use anyway HDR mode.

However, thanks to the forum AVS, I found a setting in HDR not too bad and I will be satisfied with that.

I use the settings from this website (given by AVS forum) : https://www.lite-magazin.de/2021/06/benq-tk700sti-4k-gaming-beamer-mit-android-tv-hdr-und-kurzem-input-lag/ (use google translator !)

I tested on  some movies, it's pretty good. There is only the last season of "See" which does not really good because plenty of very dark scenes. I have the impression that this series was created to sell OLED TVs.

In conclusion, I don't found a solution to force SDR in Shield but I deal with that and found a compromise to optimise my HDR settings 🙂 

 

 

Nice! And for the picture being too dark, if you can, just slightly raise the gamma. It might give you some balance.

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cayars
1 hour ago, generiq said:

Oh dear. You really don't understand. 

I didn't even slightly suggest it wouldn't look different or better. I was showing you your errors. You made some statements that were emphatically incorrect.

XPR will upscale quite nicely, that's its function, but it does not make anything bigger. It does not 'upsize'. 

Any picture enhancing that the projector may be capable of, is in no way HDR. But I'm sure there must some kind of picture color improvement for SDR media, otherwise what would be the point of adding the filters.

Upsize or upscaling mean the same thing!
https://timelapsecameras.com/products/4k-video-upsizing
https://www.toolfarm.com/tutorial/upscale/
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/310029-how-to-upscale-video-content-to-4k-8k-and-beyond

You are taking a lower resolution video and increasing the pixel count using an algorithm. Yes the "video picture" is now bigger because there are more pixels.  That does not mean the picture size will change on your device of choice.  If I watch a 720, 1080 or 4K movie on my 75" Samsung TV in 16:9 the picture size does not change because of the way the hardware displays the image but you get finer detail because of pixel density difference.

If you take the same videos and play them back in a software app that does no stretching or zooming to accommodate the screen size the picture size is quite different.  Take the same videos in the app and set it to full screen mode (like a projector or TV) and you get finer detail with the resolution increase.

That's the point for projectors and TVs.  The screen doesn't grow to accommodate the video but the detail becomes finer.

Edited by cayars
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2 minutes ago, generiq said:

And I'll just add this quickly, for others that might be interested. 

The point I'm making about upscaling vs upsizing, and that it isn't upsizing. Think of it like this. If you have a 50" 1080 HD TV and you put a 50" 2160 UHD (4k) TV next to it. Is the UHD TV picture bigger than the HD TV? 

IMO you are nitpicking a ridiculous point (but, that's not new :)).  Carlo already said what he meant by "upsize" == "upscale".  No need to continue to beat this dead horse.

@NocturalI'm glad you got something you are happy with.

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Noctural
1 hour ago, cayars said:

@Noctural have you tried manually setting the display parameters on the shield to 1080 60?

Yep in Emby menu the difference is quite obvious

Result in SDR mode (menu of emby), 1080p and 4K / IA upscale disable.

4K.jpg

FullHD.jpg

 

In HDR Movie

4K:

1083268218_4K-Movie.thumb.jpg.48481b23f1bfeb4b490a147a543e6b77.jpg

Full HD

329665657_FullHD-Movie.thumb.jpg.5110d4abc887a377ba2779035ca7a5e6.jpg

Edited by Noctural
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cayars

There is quite a difference.

What's the difference setting wise being used for the two Black Widow pics?

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cayars
2 hours ago, generiq said:

And I'll just add this quickly, for others that might be interested. 

The point I'm making about upscaling vs upsizing, and that it isn't upsizing. Think of it like this. If you have a 50" 1080 HD TV and you put a 50" 2160 UHD (4k) TV next to it. Is the UHD TV picture bigger than the HD TV? 

Yes, the video picture is always bigger with higher resolution regardless of the optical display resolution.
f875f588-487c-47fe-8060-04cd5e57ee00.jpg

What your TV/Device is doing is scaling the picture to maximize the display size you have on lower resolution media.
If you took 2 Samsung TVs of 50", one a 1080 model and one a 4K model and played back a 1080 file they would both normally fill the screen and you would get a 50" picture.

Now on the 4K model go into the tools section and select the zoom or picture size menu and turn this off (some models called Smart View 1).
Now when you play the 4K media it takes up the whole 50" screen but when you play back a 1080 file it will reduce to 1/4 size of the screen on that TV. When in a normal screen fit mode the TV is upscaling, upconverting, upsizing depending on brand and marketing but is essentially the same thing.

Upscaling in some form has been part of every digital TV since 720 resolution.

Your higher end TV's have scalers built in that can of course improve the 1080 picture scaled to 4K as well using fancy algorithms and picture enhancements that put the image somewhere between SDR and true HDR. You can clearly see the difference watching the same 1080 content on two 50" TV sitting next to each other, one being a native 1080 TV while the other is a 4K TV. One has a richer color space available that scaling algorithm enhancements can use to create a picture beyond what a SDR display can produce.

See if this link helps you understand this better.
https://www.howtogeek.com/427091/what-is-upscaling-on-a-tv/

Edited by cayars
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rodainas

An easy example would be:

On any monitor, open a 200x400 resolution image, then on that same monitor open a 400x800 image, you will see that one is bigger than the other.

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Noctural
8 hours ago, cayars said:

There is quite a difference.

What's the difference setting wise being used for the two Black Widow pics?

Nothing in particular, I set the Shield in 1080p and 4K 🙂

I disable the upscaling option in both cases from the Shield

 

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cayars

I know you mentioned you weren't able to lock the Shield to 1080 60Hz and any HDR content would still come through.  I've seen a lot of posts with similar complaints from high end 4K TV users as well as projector owner. This video above shows how to customize the output that may be different to what you tried.  I don't know if the Tube version is exactly the same or not to the Shield TV Pro but it's worth a try.  For your projector you likely want 60Hz instead of the 120 Hz shown in the video but it's more about how it's set. Then in Resolution choose the 1920x1080 60 Hz, RGB 8-bit Rec. 709 menu choice.

Don't know if it will work on the tube but should only take a couple minutes to test. If this work you should then be able to use HDR->SDR for 4K HDR media sending 1080 SDR to the projector.

For the two pics of Black Widow without the scaling turned on it looks pretty bad.
What I'd still be curious about is a heads up test of playing a normal 1080 SDR movie two ways.
First passing it as is to projector letting it upscale and enhance the image and then setting the shield back to 4K resolution but with the Shield AI Scaling turned on passing the projector 4K.

The new AI scaling on the Shield is really good and is almost always same or better than what's built in on most TVs unless you have a super high end Sony or Samsung. So on a normal TV it's almost a no brainer but with projector that still has to pixel switch you don't know the outcome without testing.

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