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Emby Development Path


Dizzy49

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Dizzy49

Is there a proposed development path for Emby at this point?

 

Emby seems to be stuck in an awkward in-between place right now.  It is lacking some major functionality before it can truly work as a solid mobile platform.  Similar can be said about the home market as well.  Key clients and functionality lacking before it can really compete against plex or kodi.  Given Emby's more of a paid program now it is going to lose a lot of the community support and it's going to have to compete on it's own merits against other/similar paid systems.

 

I think the community at large needs to know what is in store for the future.  We have seen so many replies that this feature or that feature are "coming", only to still be waiting months and months later.  With only two devs feature releases are going to be slow.  Those of us waiting on strong mobile platform need to know if this is a priority, or if we need to be looking elsewhere, and maybe we take another look in a year or two.  Same with the home crowd.  Will the key features needed to support a solid home platform be upcoming, or not?

 

Does the Emby team really understand what is wanted/needed to provide those platforms?  I've read several "active" threads that concern me and lead me to believe that the team may not understand the needs, and it may be the reason they are stuck.  I offered a few suggestions that would apply in either case (home or mobile), but have had zero replies from the team.

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Dizzy49

Off hand, no.  I've been lurking for over a year now, I've read a lot...

 

They involved user permissions, user and device level settings, direct play settings, offline playing, and various client requests, notably Xbox and PS.

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MSattler

Can you point us to the post/threads you are referring to?

 

You could always just do a search for posts by Luke with the words "planned feature" in them....

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spootdev

You could always just do a search for posts by Luke with the words "planned feature" in them....

Or roadmap.

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MSattler

Excellent question........it's mentioned alot.........never seen one.   :D

 Coming soon! Sometime this year!

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legallink

My experience in general is that they respond to the posts that seem to get the most participation/voice.  If one person posts a thread and no one likes or responds on that thread, I think the interpretation is that it is not as high of a priority, or is more of a singular issue.  So, what you deem as a priority may not be what they understand the community deems to be a priority.  And that is possibly a disconnect, but based on my reading of posts, that is what I have seen.

 

For the most part, at least for the last while, it has been a lot more about bug fixing and UI/UX than about increase in feature set.  I would assume that will change as we get more stability in the platform.  For a while it was a mad rush to get on as many platforms as quickly as possible.  Then it turned to bug quashing.  It seems that the bug quashing is starting to dwindle, as the platform seems more and more solid (at least to me.)

 

Additionally, the iOS and native Live TV platforms has been taking quite a bit of time from what I can tell. iOS dev took a long time in dev testing before it went beta/public available, as I think there were/are some steeper learning curves.  Live TV I think is a painful process to implement.

 

I would be surprised if a PS app came out anytime soon, but I can very much be wrong on that front.  I know when I brought it up a couple years ago, the answer was it was expensive to get access to that platform so it was unlikely (obviously that was a couple of years ago and things can change).

 

I've got no insight about Xbox and any planned app there.  I would assume since Microsoft is moving Xbox to support Windows Universal Apps that any support for Xbox would be rolled into that.

Edited by legallink
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MSattler

My experience in general is that they respond to the posts that seem to get the most participation/voice.  If one person posts a thread and no one likes or responds on that thread, I think the interpretation is that it is not as high of a priority, or is more of a singular issue.  So, what you deem as a priority may not be what they understand the community deems to be a priority.  And that is possibly a disconnect, but based on my reading of posts, that is what I have seen.

 

For the most part, at least for the last while, it has been a lot more about bug fixing and UI/UX than about increase in feature set.  I would assume that will change as we get more stability in the platform.  For a while it was a mad rush to get on as many platforms as quickly as possible.  Then it turned to bug quashing.  It seems that the bug quashing is starting to dwindle, as the platform seems more and more solid (at least to me.)

 

Additionally, the iOS platform has been taking quite a bit of time from what I can tell. iOS dev took a long time in dev testing before it went beta/public available, as I think there were/are some steeper learning curves.

 

I would be surprised if a PS app came out anytime soon, but I can very much be wrong on that front.  I know when I brought it up a couple years ago, the answer was it was expensive to get access to that platform so it was unlikely (obviously that was a couple of years ago and things can change).

 

I've got no insight about Xbox and any planned app there.  I would assume since Microsoft is moving Xbox to support Windows Universal Apps that any support for Xbox would be rolled into that.

 

I don't think anyone really disagrees with any of your points.  I think what people get in a tissy about is when you have advertising for premier support state that IOS Sync is coming soon, and it has said so for months now, when in reality it isn't close.  Naturally that leads premiere and potential premier customers to wonder when it is coming.  It is at this point, and some times in requests posts that the "roadmap" always ends up being mentioned.

 

I think all that really needs to happen is:

 

1)  Don't advertise for capabilities that are not in place, and don't label anything as coming soon without a date.

2)  Don't refer to a roadmap that you don't have or are willing to share.

3)  Be more open about what is the current goal.

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While I understand the perception of us as a primarily paid product now, the reality is that the vast majority of active Emby users are still using the platform for free and we still have most of our work as open source. 

 

However, we are competing in a commercial and highly competitive space.  Any "roadmap" or plan information we post out here is just feeding that information directly to our competition.

 

We are working hard on a lot of things and have a lot more planned.  Are some of those features taking longer than we'd like?  Absolutely but we are trying to focus on quality instead of quantity and the platform, while not complete, is extremely usable in its current state.

 

Telling you guys dates or time frames for certain features only leads to missed expectations and disappointment and gives more strategic information to the competition so we are no longer doing that.

 

So, you should only expect to see concrete information about these things very close to when they are actually ready.

 

Also, I agree that we should not advertise features as "coming soon" in the Premiere description if they are not close to being ready so we will change that.

 

Thank you for your support.

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MSattler

 

 

Also, I agree that we should not advertise features as "coming soon" in the Premiere description if they are not close to being ready so we will change that.

 

Thank you for your support.

 

I think that will certainly help.  Now just get Luke to quit referring to the roadmap in posts =)

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Dizzy49

However, we are competing in a commercial and highly competitive space.  Any "roadmap" or plan information we post out here is just feeding that information directly to our competition.

 

We are working hard on a lot of things and have a lot more planned.  Are some of those features taking longer than we'd like?  Absolutely but we are trying to focus on quality instead of quantity and the platform, while not complete, is extremely usable in its current state.

 

That's a very narrow view of things and speaks to your experience (or lack of) in a competitive business environment.  Stating your goals, even without going into great detail should be a no-brainer.  As far as feeding info to your competition, sure that's one way to view it.  The other way is that you are making a statement of how good your product will be.  You are making commitments to your customers on what will be done.  Your competition can view that info and see if they still wish to compete, they may then propose their own features, etc.  As I noted in another thread... Competition is good, you push each other to make a better product.  If you are already so concerned about missing deadlines and disappointing consumers, than you have made some terrible decisions with your development plans.  I've been developing for 12+ years now.  If you can't at least give a MONTH/YEAR when something should be coming, then your dev team is in serious trouble.

 

 

1)  Don't advertise for capabilities that are not in place, and don't label anything as coming soon without a date.

2)  Don't refer to a roadmap that you don't have or are willing to share.

3)  Be more open about what is the current goal.

 

Yes, I know many of us are getting tired of the "it's coming".  Sad fact is that I dropped several thousand dollars on a new server, specifically with Emby in mind, and planned on moving my family's entertainment over to Emby.  No sooner do I have my server set up than everything seems to fall apart with Emby.  I'm seeing more promises in the forums than I am deliverables in the code.  Key features that would have definite impacts are "coming".  While Emby was more community driven I was willing to wait a bit and see how things went, but now that it's a commercial product, if it isn't clear what direction it's going, I'm looking elsewhere.  I'd rather work around some things on another system than waiting in limbo for things that may never happen.

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Koleckai Silvestri

I have found that the best way to enjoy Emby is to simply watch my content. I no longer have hope for the cool new features that have been advertised over the last couple of years or the great new clients. Everything is just a web interface these days with little benefit from the device. Roku hasn't been really updated in a year. The new iOS client is the web interface. The Android Mobile client is the web interface. Emby Theater is a web interface. Each new release excludes features that I would find interesting and exciting so I don't even bother waiting for them. Had big hopes for the iOS client, and they were dashed on the rocks at the bottom of a cliff. Had hopes for a new Emby Client with vertical layouts and better playback quality and they were shot into the side of a mountain with a railgun. I hoped to create custom playlists with music based on genre or import them from iTunes .m3u format, that was tossed into a fiery volcano.

 

I don't foresee any of these things coming in the future so I just play media and accept that it is what it is.

 

The only benefits that I find over Kodi and Plex are:

1) Windows users are not treated like Lepers as they are on the Kodi site.

2) The server interface is much better than Plex's.

3) Unlike Kodi, there actually is a server.

Edited by Koleckai Silvestri
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b0dyr0ck2006

I think there are some really good points being made here by everyone and points that I am sure echo many users thoughts. I think it would be good if the team takes these points into consideration and responds with some very clear and definitive replies. The system does work very well, I won't argue that. There are still bugs that are being worked on, as is expected and this will always be an ongoing task. 

 

Regardless of how many users are still using the free versions of the software, Emby is now moving into the subscription/commercial arena and with that comes certain expectations. Users will want to know what the roadmap is, what features are coming (with a timeframe). This also brings into the light Emby Premier. A bone of contention. If you dont want to use the free versions and want the new and improved system, you have to pay. That is fair enough as a huge amount of work has gone and continues to go into producing this but..... With the name premier, users feel that they should be getting 'extras' for their money that the free users don't get. The use of the new software doesn't really cut it.

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Sven

You also need to know that most of us are doing this in our free time. Sometimes you have more time,on other moments you don't have any time to do it. So it's difficult to tell sometimes when it's ready.

 

I understand also your opinion. But you need to see it from 2 sides.

Most of the stuff is still for free. If we would ask for the full package some money. Developers would be paid and it could be their daily job. That's now not the case..

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Dizzy49

I have found that the best way to enjoy Emby is to simply watch my content. I no longer have hope for the cool new features that have been advertised over the last couple of years or the great new clients. Everything is just a web interface these days with little benefit from the device. Roku hasn't been really updated in a year. The new iOS client is the web interface. The Android Mobile client is the web interface. Emby Theater is a web interface. Each new release excludes features that I would find interesting and exciting so I don't even bother waiting for them. Had big hopes for the iOS client, and they were dashed on the rocks at the bottom of a cliff. Had hopes for a new Emby Client with vertical layouts and better playback quality and they were shot into the side of a mountain with a railgun. I hoped to create custom playlists with music based on genre or import them from iTunes .m3u format, that was tossed into a fiery volcano.

 

I don't foresee any of these things coming in the future so I just play media and accept that it is what it is.

 

The only benefits that I find over Kodi and Plex are:

1) Windows users are not treated like Lepers as they are on the Kodi site.

2) The server interface is much better than Plex's.

3) Unlike Kodi, there actually is a server.

 

Railguns and volcanos, lol!

 

As a "former" dev and project manager I see the server as the central "core" of Emby.  The core needs to be rock solid, and then the clients can be finalized.  I also believe that if Emby focuses on the server and lets 3rd parties develop clients, that we would have some really good stuff going on.  Emby's team would be able to focus on the core, instead of being spread across so many things.  By adding features and support to the core, it allows the clients to have better functionality.  Other devs will create clients for other platforms, and we may see multiple clients in iOS and Android.  But, this shouldn't hurt Emby... Emby should BENEFIT from it.

Emby's Premiere service is tied to the server, NOT THE CLIENTS.  The clients can log in, and will have access to premiere options, but they are handled at the server level.  So, again... Emby should focus on the server, and let others focus on the clients.  As the server becomes more solid, and good clients are readily available, Emby will see an increase in premiere subscriptions.  Win-Win-Win all around.

 

 

Some Suggestions for Server

 

User Permissions - Actually this has gotten a lot better, so I'm putting this here just to give the devs props

 

Device Settings - Currently you can rename the device, and allow syncing of camera images.  The ability to set preferred audio/video rates per device, not only makes sense, but adds HUGE value.  Currently this is done in the client, but it makes more sense to set at the server level.  This allows the server admin (not a clueless device user) to set the max rates so that someone on a 720p tablet isn't trying to stream a 20GB HD video at 100mb across a 3G connection.  A "device wizard" would be great.  Can select device type (tablet, cell, tv box, pc, etc), which would default to certain settings (with the option to change of course), etc.  

 

Direct Play (aka Pass Through) - Ability to play a file directly without any transcoding.  This is HUGE for the home theater folks.  If I have a nice 1080p encode with 7.1 audio, I want it to go directly to my A/V receiver.  Transcoding is a waste of CPU cycles on the server, and degrades the audio/video quality.  This is when the device settings com in handy

 

Transcode Once - Option to save files that are transcoded so that it doesn't need to be transcoded again if played by the same device.  Great for movies, great for road trips where a movie might be started, and then finished days later. Also great if you have multiple devices with the same audio/video setup.  Again, ability to set device settings is good for this as well.

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Dizzy49

You also need to know that most of us are doing this in our free time. Sometimes you have more time,on other moments you don't have any time to do it. So it's difficult to tell sometimes when it's ready.

 

I understand also your opinion. But you need to see it from 2 sides.

Most of the stuff is still for free. If we would ask for the full package some money. Developers would be paid and it could be their daily job. That's now not the case..

 

It was my understanding that there are now two full time paid developers.

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Deathsquirrel

It's an interesting problem that's been discussed several times before.  We want roadmaps and they can't possibly deliver them because part of the work force, a big part, is volunteers with varying schedules.

 

I suggest a short blog-type post by the lead on each platform just talking about current project goals that gets updated every couple months.  It doesn't need to be a lot but it would be nice to know whether the android client dev was focused on new format support, UI revisions/ease of use, whatever.  If it was new format support you don't need to say 'you will get these 5 new media types by May 1, we promise', you can just say 'We're actively working to expand the number of media formats the player supports without transcoding.'  I think those kind of updates would have value to the community.

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Deathsquirrel
Direct Play (aka Pass Through) - Ability to play a file directly without any transcoding.  This is HUGE for the home theater folks.  If I have a nice 1080p encode with 7.1 audio, I want it to go directly to my A/V receiver.  Transcoding is a waste of CPU cycles on the server, and degrades the audio/video quality.  This is when the device settings com in handy

 

Transcode Once - Option to save files that are transcoded so that it doesn't need to be transcoded again if played by the same device.  Great for movies, great for road trips where a movie might be started, and then finished days later. Also great if you have multiple devices with the same audio/video setup.  Again, ability to set device settings is good for this as well.

 

Not to derail the thread but these already exist.  The server direct plays when that's an option and offers a sync function that converts your media to a playable format.

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I suggest a short blog-type post by the lead on each platform just talking about current project goals that gets updated every couple months. It doesn't need to be a lot but it would be nice to know whether the android client dev was focused on new format support, UI revisions/ease of use, whatever. If it was new format support you don't need to say 'you will get these 5 new media types by May 1, we promise', you can just say 'We're actively working to expand the number of media formats the player supports without transcoding.' I think those kind of updates would have value to the community.

This is a really good idea. I will work on this next week.

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Dizzy49

Not to derail the thread but these already exist.  The server direct plays when that's an option and offers a sync function that converts your media to a playable format.

 

Yes, and No.  I have never gotten the direct play to work, and there was a pretty heated thread about it from another user a couple months back.  It's problematic at the least, and seems to be client driven, which may be part of the issues.

 

Yes, Emby will transcode, it's one of the main reasons why I got it (and a beefy server).  The "sync" is not exactly intuitive, and the logic for it could use some work.  Ie, if I have 4 identical tablets, it would transcode and sync 4 times, where it should transcode once to that format, and save that file to sync OR stream in the future.

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Dizzy49

It's an interesting problem that's been discussed several times before.  We want roadmaps and they can't possibly deliver them because part of the work force, a big part, is volunteers with varying schedules.

 

I suggest a short blog-type post by the lead on each platform just talking about current project goals that gets updated every couple months.  It doesn't need to be a lot but it would be nice to know whether the android client dev was focused on new format support, UI revisions/ease of use, whatever.  If it was new format support you don't need to say 'you will get these 5 new media types by May 1, we promise', you can just say 'We're actively working to expand the number of media formats the player supports without transcoding.'  I think those kind of updates would have value to the community.

 

Agreed, very good idea.

 

 

This is a really good idea. I will work on this next week.

 

I think some general statements on the general status of Emby as a team/company would also be wise.  There seems to be a lot of speculation on the forums, and internet, and it would be nice to hear the state of things directly from the team.

For instance, I saw a note about only 2 paid devs.  How many devs were on the project previously?  How do you expect these two paid devs to impact the dev cycles (better or worse, howso?)  What of the community devs?  Do you expect them to continue to contribute w/o being paid?  What is Emby's take on 3rd party devs wanting to create (or improve) clients?

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Deathsquirrel

Yes, and No.  I have never gotten the direct play to work, and there was a pretty heated thread about it from another user a couple months back.  It's problematic at the least, and seems to be client driven, which may be part of the issues.

 

Many clients can't directly play a lot of media formats due to limits of the operating hardware, but if you have media that should directly play but does not they will investigate it as a potential bug.  It's not a feature request as the sensing is already a feature.

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